Garden Soil Help.

[MarkV]

I sure could use some help from you gardeners. We are in a new home in Northwest Georgia and finally have some room to start a good size garden. Any of you that know our soil in the Southeast know that clay is the main ingredient. I would like to start improving the soil in the future garden area and I am not sure where to start.

We will get a soil test done and it is pretty much a sure thing that lime will be required in this area. Everything I have read indicates that organic material needs to be worked into the soil to help loosen up the clay. It is real serious clay around here. There is a commercial tree service near by that has a wood chip pile that must be two stories tall where I can buy truckloads of somewhat composted wood chips. It has also been suggested that a load of sand tilled in may help.

So, what do all of you suggest. With the experience I have, no suggestion is too basic.

MarkV

 

[pajoube]

Another thread on this site "Composting" will offer some good advise as well. I would suggest you start with the mixture of sand and the chips that you will work into your clay soil. Then on top of your garden you will put compost on the entire area. If you can get good compost in quanity till this in along with the sand.
PJ

 

[RalphVa]

That red clay down there probably isn't too bad. I'd just get some compost and work it in. You have to be careful with sand. Could end up with concrete.

You need to try to make mounded rows to help them drain a little better. The mounded rows and clay-like soil with some leaf or similar mulch on top after the seeds sprout a bit will help to drain but also to maintain the moisture in the soil.

I have a Gravely rotary plow that is great for making mounded rows. Been trying to get experience on these forums from folks using a 3 pt plow behind a compact/subcompact to mound rows without any response yet, as I plan to upgrade to a subcompact in April. Will keep the Gravely around until I can replace it in all aspects though.

Ralph

 

[GregJ]

Mark,
I am no expert, but have read where partially composted wood chips could be bad for your soil. They deplete the nitrogen to complete their composting process. I know that organic material will help break up clay, but I would make sure that it is "completely cooked" before tilling it in. If you can get the wood chips cheap and compost them yourself, I think that would be a good thing. I bought 10 yards of "high quality" compost last year for $35/yard and it came complete with Morning Glory and about 6 new weed varieties that I had never seen before. And as an added bonus they threw in some broken beer bottles. When I complained, they said obviously the weeds and broken glass wasn't from them because they are a "high quality" operation. I'm doing my own compost from now on. I have found this web site to be very informative: Soil, Compost and Mulch

Greg

 

[Bob_Skurka]

You can loosen clay with coarse sand, you do not want fine/small grain sand. But that will add zero to the nutrient base of the soil. I also have heavy clay soil and we tilled in some sand and it helped, but all it did was loosen it. You can also till in spagnahm peat moss (the dry compressed stuff) to loosen the soil.

Amending it with compost will help the garden. Wood chips may need to be composed a year before you till them in. If you have a chipper you may want to run the chips through your chipper because the big commercial chippers may give you something more like chunks. Our gas/electric company gives away truck loads of chipped trees if you get on the list early, it includes every part of the trees from the leaves to the small branches to chipped tree trunks and it is not suitable for tilling into a garden as it comes from them. But if you compost it down it is good. Leaf mold is also good, compost your leaves over the winter and till them in.

If you are serious about gardening, you will want to till in whatever organic matter you can get your hands on AND THEN do a soil test to see if you need things like lime. Some of the composted matter you add to the soil can change the ph of the soil so doing the soil test BEFORE you add whatever you add may give you some direction, but it is not your final answer.

 

[sassafraspete]

MarkV, I live on clay ground , so know what you are talking about. I have done lots of gardening...from small plots to 2 acres. Grew 3000 bell pepper plants one yr, from seed to maturity. It is very important on clay soil to not work it wet. You can compact it very easily. If you plow and can grab a handful of dirt, and squeeze and it stays in a ball, then too wet. If it crumbles...OK. Sometimes, you have to work wet if you don't get the right weather. If you work wet, you will be living with hard dirt clods the rest of the year. On the other hand, if you can get lots of organic stuff in the ground , go for it. The soil will then crumble...even when wet. I currently have a small garden that I have been improving by tilling in leaves every yr. One year I got a little heavy in one area, and everything was stunted in that area...I think the leaves took too much nitrogen out of the ground while decomposing. So you have to watch for that. However, after a few yrs of the leaf thing...there is no comparison with the texture of the soil. Also , I've had to be generous with the lime.

pete

 

[Bird]

Mark, I've heard and read so much about decomposing wood chips depleting nitrogen in the soil that I figure it must be true. However, I put massive quantities on my garden, both from using a chipper shredder myself and from truckloads delivered to me by the guys who were pruning trees from power line right of ways. And I'm sure "composting" is a great way to improve a garden; guess I'm just too lazy; never did any composting; just threw it all in the garden and tilled it in. I had black clay and I had a soil analysis done the first year that indicated it was OK as it was, and then I raised rabbits, so that provided quite possibly the best fertilizer you could get. And after 3 or 4 years, I also cleaned out a neighbor's calf barn that had not been cleaned out in at least 4 years, so I had two dump truck loads of that tilled into the garden. No one in that part of the country had a better vegetable garden than I did.

 

[MarkV]

Great advice so far, thank-you, I am taking notes. I kind of knew that I was starting to late, couldn't be helped, and that it takes several years to develop soil. What do you think I should do for this first year?
a. Forget the garden this year and start tilling in anything I can get, like manure, chips, leaves, ect.
b. Plow under the existing grass and plant in what I have while developing compost for next fall.
c. Look for the best organic material I can find in bulk, till it in, plant and cross my fingers.

To be honest I didn't even know you could buy real compost in bulk. That would seem to be the best for this first year and I will look locally for a source.

MarkV

 

[RalphVa]

I've bought compost in bulk here in central Va at Panorama Paydirt. Have also bought mulch from them. I've found that the fresh stuff won't grow plants well until it seasons for a while, or until you get the pH right.

I've thrown mulch between my green plants for years in NJ, La and now here in Va. It's a great way to control weeds. It turns to dirt for the next season.

Some plants (raspberries) even like something with a way-off C:N ratio like sawdust, which is about 500:1 vs. a more normal value of about 30:1. I've heard about it drawing N from the soil but don't know if anyone has ever proven it.

Ralph

 

[fivestring]

1/3 sand
1/3 organic (compost)
1/3 native soil (in your case, clay)

You need some clay to hold moisture.
You need some sand to move moisture.
You need organic to use nutrients.

Add some gypsum. It keeps the clay from packing too tight.

 

[GareyD]

Mark, I'm about 30 miles west of you on I-20 and the Alabama line, here is what I have done...

Put about 1 inch of COARSE builders sand, leaves (bags stacked on the curb around your neighborhood are a quick source), wheat straw, whatever, on your ground fairly evenly, sprinkle with 13-13-13 fertilizer and pelletized lime...lightly till, then sow clover or Austrian winter peas over the top and let it grow....(Green Manure, a gardeners second best friend after compost!!)

In the late spring, till everything in and wait a couple of weeks, then till it again....

That time of the year, WallyWorld always has sterilized manure on sale for $.89-$.99 a bag...take a smaller section of your garden plot 1/4 - 1/3 or so and string out your rows, dig a shallow furrow under the string about 1/3 - 1/2 the size of the manure bags and pour the manure into the furrow leaving it mounded, and then plant all the sets (tomato, pepper, squash) you want directly into the mounded rows.

Plant seeds you need in the rest of the garden....sow more clover into any extra ground, tilling it in when it reaches maturity. (allow a couple of weeks before re-tilling and planting)...I even plant row centers in clover, it will die back in the hottest, dry part of the summer, eliminating water competition to your garden plants!!

After harvest, cover the ground again omitting the sand unless needed, sow cover crop and let it grow...

In coming years, move the manure technique over from previous year(s) and do it again..

Keep adding organic material and cover crop to open ground and in 3-4 years you will have a garden spot to be proud of!!!

Keep an eye open around Alpharetta and North Atlanta...lots of smaller stables up there that usually are looking to have manure hauled...also...Hyponex down in Locust Grove/McDonough used to sell mushroom compost in bulk, this was a couple years ago, don't know if they still do or not.

Sorry if this got too long, just one of my favorite subjects /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

GareyD

 

[PaulK]

Mark:
I'm a few years ahead of you in this process -- and you can learn from my myriad mistakes.
My garden is 40x60 ft. and is about 1.5 ft. higher than the surrounding area because it has been amended with compost and coarse sand. 40 tons of sand and you-do-the-math umpteen yards of compost.
Anything grows well in it. I rotate crops, modify the PH according to the veggie's need, etc.
My perspective on gardening is born from my adolescent work on a golf course, construction of my own putting green, and bothering my neighbor who has a Ph.D. in organic chemistry.
There is an old saying: "Farming is 90% drainage and 10% common sense. If you lack common sense, add more drainage." The same thing is true for a putting green and a garden area that performs well every year.
When it comes to composting, you can but really don't want to throw all sorts of stuff into the ground and wait for it to break down. Ideally, all of your composting should be aerobic [with lots of air movement and the beneficial fungi that it harbors]. When turfgrass and gardens decline, it's usually because of fungal pathogens that thrive under anerobic conditions. When you till under organic material that has not broken down, you get the phenomenon of "nitrogen draft", wherein the microorganism population gets out of balance and ties up the absorption of nutrients by plants. Even if you were to add inordinate amounts of nitrogen to the soil, you'd still have the problems.
Now back to the original concern: composting. The textbook rule of thumb for a compost pile is 30:1 C:N ratio. If you get too low, i.e. only grass clippings which are 10:1, it will break down too fast for a full specturm of microorganisms and will smell. The smell is some of your N going skyward. If your ratio is 100:1, it will take a long time to break down and will probably not reach temperatures high enough the kill weed seeds. If you want just one big pile, find someone with manure to give your pile both N and a variety of fungi.

The complexity of my composting is driven by my lack of manure. I receive about 50 truck load of wood chips each year - using most of it as mulch and about 50 yards for my composting. I let the tree workers dump here for free as long as the chips are clean and are hardwood only [because they break down more rapidly]. Each spring I find myself with two types of compost piles. One is totally broken down and two seasons old. This one goes into the soil. Another contains the previous year's shredded leaves, grass clippings, and wood chip mix. It's about 8' high and wide and 30' long and has been covered with a tarp over the winter so that it continues to break down. I'll take a percentage of this pile to add to fresh wood chip loads to provide microorganisms, some N, and the capacity to retain moisture. I'll also use some of the overwintered pile to combine with grass clippings throughout the summer. I cook the grass clippings well at a 25:1 ratio to kill out the weed seeds. By the time fall rolls around, I will mix the predominately wood chip mix with the predominately grass clippings mix in preparation for the "leaf-o-rama". This ready mix probably consists of 50 yards of wood chips with 25 yards [by volume] of grass clippings and 200-300 gallons of water [over 4 months]. The key with wood chips is to get them saturated with water in preparation for the fall mix with leaves. They provide air pockets, moisture and carbon sources. When you combine 10-20 yards of leaves to this mix, they will heat up beautifully without combusting. Beautiful is an understatement. They often break down in 2 weeks. Leaves are a great mineral source. They provide trace minerals to your garden.
I hope that this gets you on the road to having great garden soil. The complexity of the soil will help avoid dozen of diseases on your plants.
Paul.

 

[riptides]

I believe Gary said this -
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Add some gypsum. It keeps the clay from packing too tight. )</font>

Gypsum actually works very well over the years at turning clay into - shall we say dirt.

Cheap too. I spread it liberally over my lawn every chance I get, now 15+ years later, the front looks dark about 3 inches down.
Areas where it was not applied, are STILL clay..... Imagine if I would have tilled it in? Go figure.

-Mike Z. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[GregJ]

Paul,
Great post. Thanks for sharing. Sounds like you really have a great system.

Greg

 

[MarkV]

Looks like I have a lot to learn and fortunately there are some great teachers here. I really appreciate all the information and have it in my new "Hope to be a Gardener someday" note book. Not sure I'll ever have it down to the science that PaulK does but I am looking forward to trying.

Thanks to GareyD I have already located a place to buy compost in bulk so that looks like a good starting point. I'll also look for coarse sand that I can get by the truckload. I have a dump truck so I'll see about getting a couple of loads of the partly composted wood chips and start my own compost pile with them for next year.

About the gypsum, should it be used in acidic soil? How about sheetrock scraps as a source for gypsum.

Keep the advice coming, I can see those veggies growing aready.

MarkV

 

[RobertN]

Check with your local Ag extension for a Master Gardener program. Here in California, they run through the local University of California offices.

The MG program offers training to volunteers for gardening in thier local area(as areas differ, they discuss those issues). The MG people are run through a condensed Horticulture program sort of. They do siminars, talks, ect, with season related topics(pruning, ect).

In addition to good info already posted here, the MG or Ag dept would have lots of good info for you.

Here is an example for El Dorado County, Ca
ceeldorado.ucdavis.edu

 

[Joe1]

A soil sample analysis and a trip to you local Government AG office should be agood place to start. Also, a lot of Junior colleges and adult extension courses provide classes that are free or almost so and have an expert teaching the class that usually provide a lot of information because they like to do so.

 

[sassafraspete]

Sounds like a lot of tractor lovers here have had their hands in the soil also. What a great subject in the dead of winter. Hmmm, maybe I'll look up that seed catalog that came the other day. I love to hear the voices of experience. Always something to learn. PaulK...you set the target for us on that composting. I have been a subscriber to fine woodwoking magazine since the 70s, and one thing I learned is that some people find as much joy in builiding their workshop, collecting tools...maybe more so than actually building anything. Sounds like Paul gets as much if not more enjoyment out of making good soil, than gardening . I have a visual of all this steam coming from around Pauls' house in the winter. Looks like Yellowstone. I can remember my dad always sticking his hands in the dirt. He could tell a lot by just feeling it. I'm wondering if Paul or Bird spend a lot of time with their hands in the dirt. My advice to MarkV...get to know your dirt by using your hands, as good dirt must just feel darn good.

pete

 

[Bird]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( wondering if Paul or Bird spend a lot of time with their hands in the dirt )</font>

Sure did during the Spring planting, at least. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[PaulK]

Mark:
Gypsum does not alter the PH of the soil. It's often used instead of lime in cases where you want to keep an acidic soil and promote drainage. If you have azaleas in foundation planting [which, because of leaching from cement, reduces acidity] gypsum helps. It's function in clay is to granualize the soil and promote drainage. I use it on soil near my street where rock salt is used and tends to damage spruce trees.
As far as sheetrock scraps go, I'd be concerned about dioxin used in bleaching the paper - something I read a few years ago and can't say with certainty. I have used drywall plaster in my compost pile - it contains limestone and or gypsum, fine clay, perlite and silica, none of which can hurt the soil. The buckets carry a warning because the dry silica can get into your lungs and produce a well-documented lung malady. Early quarry workers got the disease - if my spelling is correct, it was "silicosis".
Regarding my hands in the soil -- my impetus for having a quality garden comes from my realization that the produce is far better than I can purchase for reasons of both health [ie. pesticides and fungicides in Mexico and California, etc.] and taste. My knowledge about gardening, as stated above, comes from golf course agronomy. In the early 1990s I went through the process of getting a commercial pesticide application license. I became convinced that fungicides don't really work. By "work", I mean that they are actually fungi "stats" [and temporarily distupt the development cycle] and not funci "cides" [literally "fungi killers"]. After a lot more reading, it became clear that all of the fungicides on the market really interrupt the reproductive cycle of the fungi thereby inducing the pathogens to produce even more spores for the next time the environmental conditions are favorable for new fungal growth. The only way to actually kill pathogens is to promote antagonistic fungi in the soil. Hence compost. The leaders in this research are at Cornell. This is not some "do-gooder" doctrinaire attack against chemical companies. It's clearly a better way to get quality produce.
Paul