Generac Running, But No Power in House

[ponytug]

Thank you for the advice, and I can follow that procedure if this happens again during another power outage.

I'm don't know how to access the transfer coils to check the wiring, but that's outside of my comfort zone. I'll get someone who (hopefully) knows what he's doing to check it out.

FWIW, I have a second electric meter and transfer switch in my barn. I didn't check that switch, but I also didn't have power in the barn during the outage. We also had a lightning storm recently that didn't hit our house, but it still managed to destroy several electronic devices, including a laptop computer, two ethernet switches, and a network camera. My wife happened to be in the basement at the time (which is where the laptop was located), and she said it sounded like a loud metallic snap. The laptop was noticeably hot and showed no signs of life. I don't know whether this could have also destroyed something related to the transfer switches.

You don't list where you are, but many places have lightning, and worth taking some precautions in today's world of electronics.

If you had enough of a surge to fry some of your electronics, it is certainly possible that the automatic transfer switch circuitry died. Was the laptop wired via a power adapter or via an Ethernet cable or neither at the time it fried?

For the future, you might want to consider a whole house surge protection system. (Plus another one in the barn panel.) I would also recommend putting Ethernet surge protectors at both ends of the Ethernet cable out to your barn, or any other long run of Ethernet on the property. (It happens to be a code requirement, but often overlooked, and a good idea regardless.) A small break in in the shielding of an Ethernet cable isn't going to make much of a difference, but the change in ground potential between the barn and the house would most definitely do it.

All the best,

Peter

 

[drssg]

If you have extended warranty, the controller would still be covered. But standard warranty only covers parts for 2 years. I think i had this conversation confused with another one dealing with 10 month old unit.

I don't have an extended warranty. I figure that I can expect to pay more for the warranty than I would have paid for repairs; otherwise, they wouldn't sell the warranties.

Sometimes that comes back to bite me, but life happens.

 

[newbury]

<snip>For the future, you might want to consider a whole house surge protection system. (Plus another one in the barn panel.) <snip>

Peter

And if you have not checked into it a good whole house surge protection system might only cost you $100 or less.
In my ~2,000 sq ft house in Mississippi we were suffering things like fried circuitry in the dishwasher and the frig.
Power is urine poor.
I thought it was going to cost about a grand to put in a whole house surge protection system but our son (who's an a/c technician) told me no and put in one for about $80, and the process can be fairly quick and simple.
Here's a youtube and the guy installs one in 6 minutes.

/edit - note I am not advocating you "do it yourself" unless you are qualified.

 

[grsthegreat]

i have a Siemens FS140 ( 140,000 volt) surge on house and 1 on shop. nice, but sure as heck wont prevent damage from direct strike. were talking millions of volts

 

[drssg]

You don't list where you are, but many places have lightning, and worth taking some precautions in today's world of electronics.

If you had enough of a surge to fry some of your electronics, it is certainly possible that the automatic transfer switch circuitry died. Was the laptop wired via a power adapter or via an Ethernet cable or neither at the time it fried?

For the future, you might want to consider a whole house surge protection system. (Plus another one in the barn panel.) I would also recommend putting Ethernet surge protectors at both ends of the Ethernet cable out to your barn, or any other long run of Ethernet on the property. (It happens to be a code requirement, but often overlooked, and a good idea regardless.) A small break in in the shielding of an Ethernet cable isn't going to make much of a difference, but the change in ground potential between the barn and the house would most definitely do it.

All the best,

Peter

Lot's of good stuff. Thank you!

The laptop was connected to a power adapter, which was connected to a UPS, which is supposed to have surge protection, although I couldn't find a joule rating for it. It was also connected via an ethernet cable to one of the two network switches that got fried. That network switch was also plugged into the same UPS.

I will look into getting a whole house surge protector for the house and barn. The local business that services Generac equipment is also a general electrician shop, so perhaps they will have some suggestions.

I live in Ohio. I had never heard of an ethernet surge protector or code related to ethernet lines. I did all the ethernet wiring in the house and barn, so that's on me. Do you have any suggestions on brands or types of ethernet surge protectors?

I see that some of them have what I'm guessing is a grounding line and are slightly more expensive.

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Some are just an in-line plug-in and are quite inexpensive.

RJ-45 Lightning Arrester Adapter Ethernet Surge Protector Network Protect hm | eBay

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[drssg]

And if you have not checked into it a good whole house surge protection system might only cost you $100 or less.
In my ~2,000 sq ft house in Mississippi we were suffering things like fried circuitry in the dishwasher and the frig.
Power is urine poor.
I thought it was going to cost about a grand to put in a whole house surge protection system but our son (who's an a/c technician) told me no and put in one for about $80, and the process can be fairly quick and simple.
Here's a youtube and the guy installs one in 6 minutes.

/edit - note I am not advocating you "do it yourself" unless you are qualified.

That is interesting and beyond my "do it yourself" qualifications. It's good to have some idea of what is involved. I envisioned it to be a bigger project.

 

[newbury]

That is interesting and beyond my "do it yourself" qualifications. It's good to have some idea of what is involved. I envisioned it to be a bigger project.

Well "do it yourself" capabilities and legalities are two different things. Some places it's getting so I can't do anything without county inspections. And I've read some places require an electrician licensed in the locality to do almost anything.
When I was from 12 to 14 my Grandfather (a master carpenter), my Father (a tool and die engineer at IBM) and I (grunt labor) built a moderately large duplex on 30 acres in Vermont.
We had someone dig the basement, but from there to the top of the 2nd story roof it was all us. Carpentry, plumbing, electric.
On the electrical work my Dad always performed the ALFSAF test (Always Look For Smoke And Fire) before he considered the work done.
So I usually hire out even minor electrical work on insured buildings.

 

[drssg]

Well "do it yourself" capabilities and legalities are two different things. Some places it's getting so I can't do anything without county inspections. And I've read some places require an electrician licensed in the locality to do almost anything.
When I was from 12 to 14 my Grandfather (a master carpenter), my Father (a tool and die engineer at IBM) and I (grunt labor) built a moderately large duplex on 30 acres in Vermont.
We had someone dig the basement, but from there to the top of the 2nd story roof it was all us. Carpentry, plumbing, electric.
On the electrical work my Dad always performed the ALFSAF test (Always Look For Smoke And Fire) before he considered the work done.
So I hire even minor electrical work on insured buildings.

Those sound like nice memories. My father was a college professor. He was a smart guy, but not particularly mechanically inclined.

As far as inspection requirements, my horse barn required virtually no inspections at all. There was a VERY early electrical inspection in order to get the power turned on to the meter. The electrician just installed the circuit panel with a single power outlet next to it before scheduling the inspection. All the real work was done after the inspector left.

OTOH, our septic system gets inspected every 18 months.

 

[Torvy]

+ whole house protection. Cost us $250 a few years before the shut down. Before that we had expensive things (sprinkler and pool controllers) go out every few years. Sits in the wall directly under the main breaker box. Just a status light shows.

 

[ponytug]

Lot's of good stuff. Thank you!

The laptop was connected to a power adapter, which was connected to a UPS, which is supposed to have surge protection, although I couldn't find a joule rating for it. It was also connected via an ethernet cable to one of the two network switches that got fried. That network switch was also plugged into the same UPS.

I will look into getting a whole house surge protector for the house and barn. The local business that services Generac equipment is also a general electrician shop, so perhaps they will have some suggestions.

I live in Ohio. I had never heard of an ethernet surge protector or code related to ethernet lines. I did all the ethernet wiring in the house and barn, so that's on me. Do you have any suggestions on brands or types of ethernet surge protectors?

I see that some of them have what I'm guessing is a grounding line and are slightly more expensive.

RJ45 Plug Ethernet Network Surge Protector Thunder Arrester 100MHz Y7B1 | eBay

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Some are just an in-line plug-in and are quite inexpensive.

RJ-45 Lightning Arrester Adapter Ethernet Surge Protector Network Protect hm | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for RJ-45 Lightning Arrester Adapter Ethernet Surge Protector Network Protect hm at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

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There are lots of cheap and not so cheap ethernet surge suppressors that aren't super effective. You want one that has both gas discharge tubes, and preferably "diodes"/MOV. You want one that will attenuate both line to line (across the Ethernet signal wires) and lines to ground.
I used these;
https://www.amazon.com/Tupavco-Ethernet-Protector-Gigabit-1000Mbs/dp/B00805VUD8/
the ground wire is way too short and I ended up creating a ground bus for a couple of ethernet cables entering the house at the same point, and then a heavy ground wire back to the main electrical panel.
Downstream, I added an MOV based unit.
Like this one;

Amazon.com: Qooltek ST-NET Ethernet Surge Protector for 10/100/1000 Base-T PoE+ Gigabit Modem Thunder & Lighting Protection ST-RJ45 : Electronics

Amazon.com: Qooltek ST-NET Ethernet Surge Protector for 10/100/1000 Base-T PoE+ Gigabit Modem Thunder & Lighting Protection ST-RJ45 : Electronics

www.amazon.com

(I am amused at the "thunder" protection, but it does contain diodes for fast clamping.)

All of the units that I looked inside had thin little PCB traces to carry the lightning surge, which is pretty pathetic in my opinion, but again, these gizmos are to take the edge off a surge, not stop a nearby strike. If you have a close hit, lots of things are going to vaporize.

You can get "outdoor" versions that are helpful to put on Ethernet cameras and WiFi access points/antennas. They have varying degrees of water resistance, but I use them as well to provide voltage clamping on both ends of every ethernet cable entering or leaving the house to keep any transient voltage surge as small as possible.

Like @grsthegreat, I put in the Siemens 140; cheap insurance in my book. I do have another half a dozen outlet surge suppression strips scattered around the house. Each one of them helps attenuate surge as well. (Each is another 4,000J, supposedly.)

All the best,

Peter

 

[Diggin It]

I went with one of these:

Plugs directly into the panel and gives you the use of the two breakers. Cost me around $80 and was a 10 minute installation.

Problems with all of these types of devices:

. You don't know if it worked, or if you just didn't get hit and would have survived without it.
. You don't know if it failed, or if it tried to protect you but the surge was over the capabilities.

 

[drssg]

There are lots of cheap and not so cheap ethernet surge suppressors that aren't super effective. You want one that has both gas discharge tubes, and preferably "diodes"/MOV. You want one that will attenuate both line to line (across the Ethernet signal wires) and lines to ground.
I used these;
https://www.amazon.com/Tupavco-Ethernet-Protector-Gigabit-1000Mbs/dp/B00805VUD8/
the ground wire is way too short and I ended up creating a ground bus for a couple of ethernet cables entering the house at the same point, and then a heavy ground wire back to the main electrical panel.
Downstream, I added an MOV based unit.
Like this one;

Amazon.com: Qooltek ST-NET Ethernet Surge Protector for 10/100/1000 Base-T PoE+ Gigabit Modem Thunder & Lighting Protection ST-RJ45 : Electronics

Amazon.com: Qooltek ST-NET Ethernet Surge Protector for 10/100/1000 Base-T PoE+ Gigabit Modem Thunder & Lighting Protection ST-RJ45 : Electronics

www.amazon.com

(I am amused at the "thunder" protection, but it does contain diodes for fast clamping.)

All of the units that I looked inside had thin little PCB traces to carry the lightning surge, which is pretty pathetic in my opinion, but again, these gizmos are to take the edge off a surge, not stop a nearby strike. If you have a close hit, lots of things are going to vaporize.

You can get "outdoor" versions that are helpful to put on Ethernet cameras and WiFi access points/antennas. They have varying degrees of water resistance, but I use them as well to provide voltage clamping on both ends of every ethernet cable entering or leaving the house to keep any transient voltage surge as small as possible.

Like @grsthegreat, I put in the Siemens 140; cheap insurance in my book. I do have another half a dozen outlet surge suppression strips scattered around the house. Each one of them helps attenuate surge as well. (Each is another 4,000J, supposedly.)

All the best,

Peter

Thank you for all the information. I'm hoping to get someone out this week to check things out, and I'll also request some assistance with the ethernet surge protectors. I don't know how to properly handle the grounding wire connections.

I'll post an update when I find something out.

Thanks again for everyone's assistance. There is a wealth of experience on this forum.

 

[drssg]

Just a minor update, a guy came out today that is more of a mechanic, not an electrician. He confirmed that the switch over problem still exists and wasn't a one-time fluke. He confirmed that it was something he can't fix, and an electrician will be out at a later date.

 

[grsthegreat]

Really need a generator service tech to look at it, especially if its a warranty repair.

 

[drssg]

Really need a generator service tech to look at it, especially if its a warranty repair.

I think it's out of warranty, but I agree. The guy they sent out today does annual servicing, but he wasn't familiar with the inner workings of the transfer switch, which is where he suspects the issue is. He happens to live right down the street from me, and he was available sooner. He will pass on information, and another guy is now scheduled to come out this Friday. We'll see.

 

[grsthegreat]

But having issues with both transfer switches at same time seems weird. May be issue with wire #23 not going to ground. Thats handled thru the controller

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

We recently had a short power outage for about ten minutes. Our Generac whole house generator kicked on, but we still had no power in the house.

I removed the cover from the transfer switch, and there is a manual switch that requires a tool (which is provided) to manually switch the house load between the utility and the generator. This switch was in the "up" position, which I believe means the house is still trying to get power from the utility.

I was inclined to manually flip the switch to provide power to the house, but I wasn't sure if there were other steps that I should take. I don't want to damage anything or injure a lineman.

I plan to have it checked by a professional next week, but in the meantime, is it safe to just manually operate that switch, if needed?

I've had ants get into transfer switches. They'll cause 150,000 watt generator to do exactly what yours is doing. But you may not have ants where you live.

 

[drssg]

But having issues with both transfer switches at same time seems weird. May be issue with wire #23 not going to ground. Thats handled thru the controller

That's a good point. Hopefully, I'll get a better answer tomorrow.

 

[drssg]

I've had ants get into transfer switches. They'll cause 150,000 watt generator to do exactly what yours is doing. But you may not have ants where you live.

We definitely have ants, and I've had them destroy an outdoor GFCI plug multiple times, but the generator looked clean.

I will be glad to get whole house surge protectors installed. In addition to lightning issues, the cutover to generator power seems to generate some dirty electricity. I've used surge protectors around the house to protect my more expensive and sensitive electronics, but after the guy tested the cutover, I noticed that my clock radio is now dead. It's not a big deal, but I'm getting sick of replacing stuff.

 

[ponytug]

A whole house surge protector should really help. As unclean as the switch over may be, I am a little bit skeptical that the voltage would be extreme enough to kill your appliances. Generators by design don't much over 240 by design, unless they fail. I would put my money on the lightning storm for that.

On the whole house surge protector, I would try to make sure that you set up the wiring to be covered by both grid power and generator power. The general advice is to put the surge protector as close to the meter as possible, but that is likely to isolate it if the transfer switch for the generator kicks in, so you might want a second one at the generator. I would file it under cheap insurance.

If you are having power quality issues, there are ferrorresonant/autotransformers that can "smooth" the power, but they are pricey.

I saw someone who did the math for his power issue and built a homemade toroid for power smoothing;

That is a single conductor, so you need two for 240=2*120. But, no, I am not seriously suggesting that you make one.

All the best,

Peter