Generalized Rant

[brin]

From my experience we have to watch the service managers at the car dealers when we take our trucks or cars iin for service especially in these economic times.

I took my Jeep Cherokee in for an oil change and got a call from the service manager that I needed a new Ideler ..I told him I had not been having any problems with the idle and to forget it...that has been over a year ago now and I still don't have a problem with the idle..had I just said OK fix it...which is always the tempting thing to do, it would have cost me $100.00+ for nothing. Another time I had a problem with the air conditioning cutting on and off from time to time ...the local dealer replaced the compressor and all seemed ok but we took a road trip and the whole Jeep began to vibrate so I took it to an out of town dealer who replaced something different and when I told them about the compressor being replaced they said the other dealer had misdiagnosed the real problem...who knows what is true ? Bottom line - customer service is gone for the most part and we have to really be hands on and pay attention to where and what we spend our money on and be sure we are not being taken advantage of..

 

[Soundguy]

Well.. what do you expect.. gm had their hands in there... I've never had so many problems with a non cheap vehicle as i have had with my gmc yukon.. it's on it's back more than a 2$ who.. er.. uh.. 'oldest profesion' type worker..

can't ever see myself getting that brand again.. if it ever comes down to that brand only.. I'll WALK!

soundguy

Given the state of the economy, you would think that all businesses would be bending over backwards to keep cusomers happy so that they come back.

I bought my wife a Hummer H3, slightly used but not cheap, for her 40th birthday. A week later the TPM service light came on..No big deal. Took it back twice to the dealer. once they said it was fixed..All they did was clear the codes. Got 5 miles from the dealer and it came back on.

Went back the next day. The "tech" cleared the codes and said that the tire pressures were low causing the problem. I called the dealer and told them that I am a recovering machanic and sevice manager and that the "tech'" flat out lied on the RO. Low pressures will set off the warning light, but not the service warning. Second trip ended up the same as the first.

Came home and reset the system myself..lasted 3 days instead of 5 miles. Went back, and they finally found a fault..how about that?

While I was there, I told them to replace the key fob as the part that connects to the key chain was broken on mine..$113.00...Rip-off, but whatever.

Next day SHMBO calls at work an tells me that her transmitter doesn't work. Battery I figure. Replace the battery and nothing.

Turns out, all transmitters must be present if you replace one. No one told me this, now I'm $113.00 lighter and no better off...

Can someone explain this garbage that is becomming common in our society?

If I did my job the way that is becomming common I would have been fired years ago.

This is but one example of the lack of concern of many customer service people over the last few years...

I'm not going to get into the issues with my RTV500 that had to be figured out with various TBN members since Kubota couldn't care less.

When you spend a ton of money, is it too much to ask to get you money's worth?


Generalized rant..But gotta vent somewhere.

 

[JB4310]

I was always a used vehicle guy, I would avoid auto dealers like the plague. But now I'm on my 3rd new vehicle in the last twelve years, no major complaints, they've all been mopar, not cause I am so brand loyal they just had what I wanted.

I never trust them when they say somethings needed, Most of the time it isn't, or if it is I'll usually do it myself.

On other side of the coin, they probably hate me for one of the deals we made. When we bought the Grand Caravan they offered extended warranty, which I do buy for new vehicles (nothing else) as an incentive to buy the extended warranty they offered use lifetime oil changes. Well after the warranty was up they tried to claim they were thru with us, but I had a simple little note initialed by a salesman long gone.

So it's been 12 years now I've never had to change the oil
We always joke about how they must cringe when my wife shows up, they are always trying to sell her something else of course.

JB.

 

[timswi]

Well.. what do you expect.. gm had their hands in there... I've never had so many problems with a non cheap vehicle as i have had with my gmc yukon.. it's on it's back more than a 2$ who.. er.. uh.. 'oldest profesion' type worker..

can't ever see myself getting that brand again.. if it ever comes down to that brand only.. I'll WALK!

soundguy

Actually Soundguy..The issues I'm having aren't the trucks fault. TPM errors are common across the board with all brands. My issue is the tech just clearing the codes instead of fixing the problem thereby wasting my time, and his.

Full disclosure: I have driven nothing but GM trucks for the last 25 years and really have had no major problems and ran them all to nearly 200k.

 

[Soundguy]

who does the tech work for?.. or better put.. who does the tech represent? the company he works for.


soundguy

 

[timswi]

who does the tech work for?.. or better put.. who does the tech represent? the company he works for.


soundguy

A GMC/Pontiac/Hummer dealer....Big, Big one around these parts.

 

[Soundguy]

that's my point.. the bad service tech represents gm.. make sthem look bad inthe process.

soundguy

 

[N80]

I think one of the biggest problems in all makes and brands is the "Check Engine Light" itself. I have two Nissans that run great and are great cars but the Check Engine Lights are on permanently and neither the dealer, local mechanics or Auto Zone ever give the same story as to why they keep coming on. I've quit worrying about it and I don't even notice anymore.

Bottom line is, the little light ought to say "Check Wallet". As far as I'm concerned that's all they are, an idiot light designed for you to give money to the dealer for problems they can't diagnose, don't understand and can't fix. Or its something they can fix, usually for around $200......that isn't broken.

 

[eepete]

What's sad about "check engine" lights on cars, and "Error Code XXX" on tractors is that the devices know exactly what's wrong. But they force you to go to a dealer to find out what's happening. A small graphic display LCD is about $15 in quantity. It could tell you exactly what's wrong or even draw a picture, but no.
On tractors where the controller can tell if a light bulb or relay coil is blown, it could just tell you what's going on. But a display that shows more than 8 characters would add about $10 to the instrument panel.

So the "bad attitude" problem is systemic throughout all levels of most corporations. Big wigs want stuff designed for dummies to get more market share. Others want to support their dealers and make you go there when anything is wrong. Dealers then work to re-inforce that behavior. And at the bottom of the food chain is the poor technician who is blamed for everything. Yes, sometimes the tech is operating way out of their league. But I wonder how many times they don't have the right diagnostic tools to help, or how often the service manager is the real Mr. Goodwrench in the works.

So listen up high end tractor manufactures! Don't treat us like idiots. Remember we want to fix some minor stuff ourselves. In the field (literally) we need to know if the error code is a big problem now or a fix it later issue without looking it up in the manual that is at the house.
I don't have much hope for the car guys...

Sorry, but this is a generalized rant thread...

Pete

 

[jayste]

Given the state of the economy, you would think that all businesses would be bending over backwards to keep cusomers happy so that they come back.

I bought my wife a Hummer H3, slightly used but not cheap, for her 40th birthday. A week later the TPM service light came on..No big deal. Took it back twice to the dealer. once they said it was fixed..All they did was clear the codes. Got 5 miles from the dealer and it came back on.

Went back the next day. The "tech" cleared the codes and said that the tire pressures were low causing the problem. I called the dealer and told them that I am a recovering machanic and sevice manager and that the "tech'" flat out lied on the RO. Low pressures will set off the warning light, but not the service warning. Second trip ended up the same as the first.

Came home and reset the system myself..lasted 3 days instead of 5 miles. Went back, and they finally found a fault..how about that?

While I was there, I told them to replace the key fob as the part that connects to the key chain was broken on mine..$113.00...Rip-off, but whatever.

Next day SHMBO calls at work an tells me that her transmitter doesn't work. Battery I figure. Replace the battery and nothing.

Turns out, all transmitters must be present if you replace one. No one told me this, now I'm $113.00 lighter and no better off...

Can someone explain this garbage that is becomming common in our society?

If I did my job the way that is becomming common I would have been fired years ago.

This is but one example of the lack of concern of many customer service people over the last few years...

I'm not going to get into the issues with my RTV500 that had to be figured out with various TBN members since Kubota couldn't care less.

When you spend a ton of money, is it too much to ask to get you money's worth?


Generalized rant..But gotta vent somewhere.

It's too bad you can't hold back some of their money until the "warranty" goes out!

 

[dave1949]

What's sad about "check engine" lights on cars, and "Error Code XXX" on tractors is that the devices know exactly what's wrong. But they force you to go to a dealer to find out what's happening. A small graphic display LCD is about $15 in quantity. It could tell you exactly what's wrong or even draw a picture, but no.
On tractors where the controller can tell if a light bulb or relay coil is blown, it could just tell you what's going on. But a display that shows more than 8 characters would add about $10 to the instrument panel.

So the "bad attitude" problem is systemic throughout all levels of most corporations. Big wigs want stuff designed for dummies to get more market share. Others want to support their dealers and make you go there when anything is wrong. Dealers then work to re-inforce that behavior. And at the bottom of the food chain is the poor technician who is blamed for everything. Yes, sometimes the tech is operating way out of their league. But I wonder how many times they don't have the right diagnostic tools to help, or how often the service manager is the real Mr. Goodwrench in the works.

So listen up high end tractor manufactures! Don't treat us like idiots. Remember we want to fix some minor stuff ourselves. In the field (literally) we need to know if the error code is a big problem now or a fix it later issue without looking it up in the manual that is at the house.
I don't have much hope for the car guys...

Sorry, but this is a generalized rant thread...

Pete

Good rant Pete. It's all true. I have often wondered about the sanity of the idiot code when like you say, for small money they could give a meaningful message. It's is so stupid it has to be intentional.

We had a 2001 GMC Safari van that had a schizoid electrical personality. Once I was fumbling around with a switch while driving down the road at night and all the lights went out I wasn't messing with the headlight switch either. The 'check engine' light would go on if you accelerated uphill with less than a half tank of gas. Sometimes it would go out, sometimes it stayed on for a couple days. Absolute crap electrical engineering is what it comes down to.
Dave.

 

[JB4310]

What's sad about "check engine" lights on cars, and "Error Code XXX" on tractors is that the devices know exactly what's wrong. But they force you to go to a dealer to find out what's happening.

Yup, the first MIL I got with my brand new truck had me so worried I stopped what I was doing and rushed over to the dealer, truck was only 2 weeks old, all I could think about was how bad it might be.

After waiting over an hour, (must of been a slow day) the tech comes out and says "did you fill the fuel tank with the engine running?" Yeah, I've always done that with diesel.
Well that's what it was, he said just by taking the fuel cap off with engine running is enough to trip the MIL. minor stuff like that will clear itself after xx number of good miles/starts etc.

I always joke now that you can't even fart near this thing without it throwing a code.

JB.

 

[NuBota]

All the scamming and "plus-selling" aside, IMHO the biggest problem is that a tech needs to have an aptitude to troubleshoot problems. Training and certifications only get so so far - same with experience - you need to understand the design and how it is supposed to work and be able to deduce the problem - and it may be something you have never seen before and/or hasn't been captured in training or knowledgebase material. I see this in the IT field all of the time - very few have good diagnostic skills. Again, see the same thing with doctors.

A good shop should have at least one "top gun" either in house or someone they can call in. Of course that means more $$$ to find and retain such an individual, not to mention some hurt feelings.....

 

[timswi]

All the scamming and "plus-selling" aside, IMHO the biggest problem is that a tech needs to have an aptitude to troubleshoot problems. Training and certifications only get so so far - same with experience - you need to understand the design and how it is supposed to work and be able to deduce the problem - and it may be something you have never seen before and/or hasn't been captured in training or knowledgebase material. I see this in the IT field all of the time - very few have good diagnostic skills. Again, see the same thing with doctors.

A good shop should have at least one "top gun" either in house or someone they can call in. Of course that means more $$$ to find and retain such an individual, not to mention some hurt feelings.....

The difference between a technician and a mechanic..I'll take the mechanic any day. he knows how things work. The tech knows what the computer tells him..And this is coming from a computer guy.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Yep, the reason I don't have a Ford is because I used to.....
Their shop would break more things trying to fix something else, and then charge me to fix what they broke. I've found the local non dealer shops do much better, and better rates.

 

[ultrarunner]

The more you can for yourself or do without... the better off you are.

It's amazing how easy it is to spend hundreds of dollars and only come up with a best guess what the problem is and a return appointment.

I deal with a lot of medical equipment and it's easy to spend $400 to $500 just in travel time in getting to and from the job...

I was unhappy with the steering wheel being off center on the only new car I ever bought... the Service Manager said it was in spec and there was nothing he could do...

I drove straight home, jacked up the front end and adjusted the wheel myself... the time we spent talking about was more than enough to fix the problem.

I'm sure you know to keep meticulous records... never know when they might come in handy.

 

[timswi]

The more you can for yourself or do without... the better off you are.

It's amazing how easy it is to spend hundreds of dollars and only come up with a best guess what the problem is and a return appointment.

I deal with a lot of medical equipment and it's easy to spend $400 to $500 just in travel time in getting to and from the job...

I was unhappy with the steering wheel being off center on the only new car I ever bought... the Service Manager said it was in spec and there was nothing he could do...

I drove straight home, jacked up the front end and adjusted the wheel myself... the time we spent talking about was more than enough to fix the problem.

I'm sure you know to keep meticulous records... never know when they might come in handy.

Agreed...I do everything I can myself..I have an OBDII scanner and some other car related electronic stuff. But I can't justify a $7,000 manufacturer specific ECM diagnostic tool..Wish I could.

 

[JB4310]

I'll take the mechanic any day. he knows how things work.

Well I don't know We stopped calling them mechanics a long time ago.

The new title? "Parts Changers"


The technology is moving in leaps and bounds and understandably is hard to keep up with.

My truck was ordered (by mistake) with an option to not have the cargo light, it's an option for cab/chassis trucks like mine that have dump bodies and don't need the light, I have a utility body so I want mine to work.
Well they put the light socket and lenses in there, it's part of the high center stop light setup, stop lights worked fine but they couldn't get the cargo light to work with the switch, they could get it to work with the scan tool for test but not with the switch.

They had the truck for 2 days trying to get that light to work, they finally called the factory tech gurus and found out that the ECM is VIN specific. Meaning that since it was ordered to not have the light, that's how the ECM is programmed and as far as they knew there was no way to reprogram

JB.

 

[timswi]

JB...This is where we have reached the theater of the absurd, starring us!!!

ECM specific cargo light..Good grief!! I guess my transmitters being programmed to the ECM instead of from it makes sense.

I have a good friend who is what I would call a mechanic. He has more computer equipment than NASA. He's a private garage owner who works on the toys of the rich around here.

He usually has a very good idea of what the problem might be, he uses the computer stuff to reinforce his instinct. That's a big difference over running around with a code scanner and replacing parts until you finally find the problem. This approach almost always creates other issues.

A sub-rant: When going to the "big-box" part stores, how many of you have to spin the monitior around to figure out what part you need because the dude with the lip rings, who was making chalupas last week, can't figure it out? AHHHHHHH!

 

[Soundguy]

how about it flash a code you could lookup in your manual.. my old 84 pontiac would do that.. jumper 2 terminals on the plug under the dash and then wait for it to flash out the codes.. then look them up.


soundguy