OP
IHDiesel73L
Silver Member
- Joined
- May 13, 2010
- Messages
- 167
This is why I really love this site-more collective knowledge that you can shake a stick at! :thumbsup:
Generator inlet plug install-need advice on wire size/type, etc...
- Thread starter IHDiesel73L
- Start date
- Views: 30624
tmajor
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 686
- Location
- NE PA
- Tractor
- 2010 MF 1529, Woods ZTR MZ1952, National Mower sickle bar circa 1963
I feel they are safe for humans, system and generator. The generators have a circuit breaker for their protection and the "generator breaker", which you install in the panel box, will give you another means of protection. The panel, wires, circuits will never be able to receive more than the limiting breakers, no matter what the load.
My setup is a little bit different because I use n transfer switch external to the breaker panel, but the general implementation approach is the same as you are considering. My inlet receptacle is located in a detached workshop, and outside on the apron there I can run either a small Honda E2000i inverter-generator (120Vac only @ 2KW, but it sips gasoline) or a larger tractor PTO-powered generator head (120Vac/240Vac split-phase @ 10KW).
edited to add:
I took the above approach because, for me, it minimizes the amount of fuel I need to store. The problem with a large, direct-coupled gasoline generator is that it consumes many gallons of gas per day.
The little Honda EU2000i will run the refrigerator and a few other items for an entire day on about a gallon of gas. However, it won't run the 200' deep 240Vac well pump. So, I use the Honda for "convenience" power -- fridge, forced hot air fan heat, kitchen lights, etc.
When the need arises to shower or run heavier loads, I start up the tractor and swap cords. With this approach, I typically only need to run the 10KW capacity generator for a half hour a day; at that rate even the 5 gallon capacity tank on the little Kubota will last a week.
Wrooster
Last edited:
tmajor
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 686
- Location
- NE PA
- Tractor
- 2010 MF 1529, Woods ZTR MZ1952, National Mower sickle bar circa 1963
These kits are available from the manufacture sites, and eBay @$105, however, like I said, they can be "special ordered" from Lowe's or H/D for about $55.
tmajor
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 686
- Location
- NE PA
- Tractor
- 2010 MF 1529, Woods ZTR MZ1952, National Mower sickle bar circa 1963
Getting back to the OP's original question: You could "wire" your system for 50A., but currently use a 30A. breaker in the panel, with your current gen set. Then, if you get a larger gen set, you could replace the 30A breaker in the panel with a 50A.
BobRip
Elite Member
The breaker in the generator will protect it. Go ahead and use the 50 amp breaker now. It is just used as a disconnect at this point.
tommu56
Elite Member
Ive put several of them in and they are good.
I prefer the square D adaptors.
http://www.schneider-electric.us/documents/customers/retail-consumer/generator-panel.pdf
tom
daybreak1998
Silver Member
Howdy,
Interlock Kit Generator InterLock Kit
The cheapest and easist route is the interlock kit. You will need to look over your current panel, and see if they have a kit. They do not cover all ever made, but do have a lot. You will also need to make sure you have to full spaces. When its installed, you will probably move circuits around to make it fit since the dual pull breaker will need to be in the top most location. OR, you could update and put in a new panel which has a interlock kit available. The price might end up being cheaper than a transfer switch. With the interlock kit, you put whatever size generator breakers you want. Dual 30's=10awg, dual 50's=6awg. With the future in mind, you might as well use 6awg wire and 50amp breakers. Your current generator has its own breaker, so it is the weakest link, which trips first. When you have your larger generator, you are good to go. This is by far the best way with using your head. No extension cords, you just need to mind your usage. Obviously no cooking in the oven. Turn all things off and and flip on the hot water tank. Flip it off and run everything else. You control which circuits you want on or off.
Generator sub panel Pro/Tran | Products | Reliance Controls Corporation
Its ok, but not as convient as using your whole panel. Say its setup, and you need to have lights somewhere, well you might only have 6 circuits in the sub panel. Yes, it works for some, but, having access to your whole panel is the way to go.
Generlink (depends on your utility) http://www.generlink.com
This is a special collar which is fitted behind your meter. It has a cost, but again, it gives you full access to your panel. The collar has a special plug which you connect your generator cord too. My utility here installed one in about 10 minutes. I have the 30amp variety, special cord with 30 amp twistlock for generator end. No interlock, no permit, no wire, no drilling, no conduit, done.
Transfer switch Transfer Switches for Generators | Northern Tool + Equipment
The more expensive approach. It works well, but, there are cheaper ways. The transfer switch itself is pricey, then you will still have to call your utility to have them pull the meter, electrician's time, and permit.
Special Transfer switch at meter PSP Products > Products
I have a special 200amp transfer switch at a central farm distibution 400amp service. This is similar to the generlink, but larger. Dual 350amp anderson connector full power plug for a 30k pto generator. Same as above, I use my panels to shut off circuits if I want.
The above links are only general examples, use whatever company you want. Just factor in all the cost associated with it, and do it correctly. Stay safe. and keep the linesmen alive
Interlock Kit Generator InterLock Kit
The cheapest and easist route is the interlock kit. You will need to look over your current panel, and see if they have a kit. They do not cover all ever made, but do have a lot. You will also need to make sure you have to full spaces. When its installed, you will probably move circuits around to make it fit since the dual pull breaker will need to be in the top most location. OR, you could update and put in a new panel which has a interlock kit available. The price might end up being cheaper than a transfer switch. With the interlock kit, you put whatever size generator breakers you want. Dual 30's=10awg, dual 50's=6awg. With the future in mind, you might as well use 6awg wire and 50amp breakers. Your current generator has its own breaker, so it is the weakest link, which trips first. When you have your larger generator, you are good to go. This is by far the best way with using your head. No extension cords, you just need to mind your usage. Obviously no cooking in the oven. Turn all things off and and flip on the hot water tank. Flip it off and run everything else. You control which circuits you want on or off.
Generator sub panel Pro/Tran | Products | Reliance Controls Corporation
Its ok, but not as convient as using your whole panel. Say its setup, and you need to have lights somewhere, well you might only have 6 circuits in the sub panel. Yes, it works for some, but, having access to your whole panel is the way to go.
Generlink (depends on your utility) http://www.generlink.com
This is a special collar which is fitted behind your meter. It has a cost, but again, it gives you full access to your panel. The collar has a special plug which you connect your generator cord too. My utility here installed one in about 10 minutes. I have the 30amp variety, special cord with 30 amp twistlock for generator end. No interlock, no permit, no wire, no drilling, no conduit, done.
Transfer switch Transfer Switches for Generators | Northern Tool + Equipment
The more expensive approach. It works well, but, there are cheaper ways. The transfer switch itself is pricey, then you will still have to call your utility to have them pull the meter, electrician's time, and permit.
Special Transfer switch at meter PSP Products > Products
I have a special 200amp transfer switch at a central farm distibution 400amp service. This is similar to the generlink, but larger. Dual 350amp anderson connector full power plug for a 30k pto generator. Same as above, I use my panels to shut off circuits if I want.
The above links are only general examples, use whatever company you want. Just factor in all the cost associated with it, and do it correctly. Stay safe. and keep the linesmen alive
OP
IHDiesel73L
Silver Member
- Joined
- May 13, 2010
- Messages
- 167
Does anyone know whether I should be using solid or stranded wire or if it makes a difference in terms of code?
grsthegreat
Super Star Member
both rated the same, but more than likely youll only find stranded #6 wires. Solid #6 are quite unyielding to work with.
OP
IHDiesel73L
Silver Member
- Joined
- May 13, 2010
- Messages
- 167
Good point. Lucky for me it will be a short run with maybe one 90, but stranded will still be easier. Thanks!
Mickey_Fx
Veteran Member
Glad I ran across this thread today. Very timely for me. Was unaware of these simple manual interlock protectors. This is the way to go for us as power outages are very infrequent, measured in yrs between failures that could last for over a day.
Have a yr old Siemens panel and see they have a kit for it, $45. Will have to buy several new breakers to help rearrange breaker locations. Panel is mounted outside which add to the cost if one were to go with a conventional gen transfer switch.
Have the ability to install myself but city/county has things locked up so tight it is a big gamble doing something like this on your own. They have the authority that any time they come out for an inspection, if they find ANY mods done without a permit and insp, current owner can be forced to go through the whole process for anything done since day one. Son lives a mile away and he is going though this now for additions made back when he was still in high school and he is in his mid-40's now.
Easy to add meters to gen for load balancing. Know of a surplus outfit that has 30A meters for ~$3/ea.
Have a yr old Siemens panel and see they have a kit for it, $45. Will have to buy several new breakers to help rearrange breaker locations. Panel is mounted outside which add to the cost if one were to go with a conventional gen transfer switch.
Have the ability to install myself but city/county has things locked up so tight it is a big gamble doing something like this on your own. They have the authority that any time they come out for an inspection, if they find ANY mods done without a permit and insp, current owner can be forced to go through the whole process for anything done since day one. Son lives a mile away and he is going though this now for additions made back when he was still in high school and he is in his mid-40's now.
Easy to add meters to gen for load balancing. Know of a surplus outfit that has 30A meters for ~$3/ea.
type THHN/THWN wire, which is stranded.
Home Depot or Lowes, in the electrical aisle.
Wrooster
pat32rf
Veteran Member
Up here (Ontario) they have started to use a meter base with a built in interlock so you can disconnect from the grid and plug in any size genny that you have. (Most are 3-6kw.) They are pricey, but can power any inside load without changing panels.
Even if you have remote sub-panels (barn or garage) or fuse panels. The downside is that you don't know when the grid power comes back on unless you have a neighbour who is in sight and blacked out.....
You still have to reduce your inside loads to match your genny, but by using compact flourescents you can have a lot of your lighting in use. You could even turn your electric water heater on overnight for a shower in the morning.....maybe
I'm still using my welding outlet, 4kw genny and backfeeding to the disconnected panel, but I was an electrician for many years and used to do a lot of temp hook-ups for apt buildings when the went down....
Even if you have remote sub-panels (barn or garage) or fuse panels. The downside is that you don't know when the grid power comes back on unless you have a neighbour who is in sight and blacked out.....
You still have to reduce your inside loads to match your genny, but by using compact flourescents you can have a lot of your lighting in use. You could even turn your electric water heater on overnight for a shower in the morning.....maybe
I'm still using my welding outlet, 4kw genny and backfeeding to the disconnected panel, but I was an electrician for many years and used to do a lot of temp hook-ups for apt buildings when the went down....
dstig1
Super Member
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2010
- Messages
- 5,594
- Location
- W Wisc
- Tractor
- Kubota L5240 HSTC, JD X738 Mower, (Kubota L3130 HST - sold)
THHN/THWN are essentially insulation ratings. They do not specify solid or stranded. The "W" means wet as in it is suitable for installations where it may get wet, for example. You can find both types in solid or stranded, which mostly depends on size. Anything larger than 10 ga tends to be stranded. You can find smaller wires stranded as needed, but most house wiring is done with 14/12/10 ga solid wire.
grsthegreat
Super Star Member
I was chatting with my inspector about these interlock kits listed here, and how there available for most panels. He let me have a bombshell......
If i install them i am destroying the UL listing on the original panel, unless these devices carry their own piggyback UL listing.
I just emailed the company to see if their devices will mess up the panels UL listing. I hope that they dont. Anyone here run into issues with this???
These seem like a nice alternative that id like to be able to use.
If i install them i am destroying the UL listing on the original panel, unless these devices carry their own piggyback UL listing.
I just emailed the company to see if their devices will mess up the panels UL listing. I hope that they dont. Anyone here run into issues with this???
These seem like a nice alternative that id like to be able to use.
tmajor
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 686
- Location
- NE PA
- Tractor
- 2010 MF 1529, Woods ZTR MZ1952, National Mower sickle bar circa 1963
The kits, made by the specific load center manufacturer, i.e. Square D, GE, etc., have UL approval. I would think, there would not be any problem with those.
Most likely, your inspector has never seen or heard of them. It a tightly kept secret, so it seems.
Most likely, your inspector has never seen or heard of them. It a tightly kept secret, so it seems.
tmajor
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2007
- Messages
- 686
- Location
- NE PA
- Tractor
- 2010 MF 1529, Woods ZTR MZ1952, National Mower sickle bar circa 1963
From Frequently Asked Questions
"Is the generator interlock kit, K-5010, for QO and Homeline loadcenters, a Square D product?
This generator interlock is by a third party company called Generator Interlock Technologies out of Richmond, VA. They make various load center interlock kits for all the major load center manufacturers. This is not a Square D product. If this generator Interlock kit was used on a QO or Homeline load center, it would void the UL Listing, and the Square D warranty!"
From Frequently Asked Questions
"What is the UL file number for QOCGK2, QOCRBGK1 and QORBGK2 ?
The Square D Generator Circuit Breaker Interlock Kit, catalog number QOCGK2, QOCRBGK1 and QORBGK2 is a UL Recognized Component listed in UL File E6294, Vol. 7, Section 16, when installed in a listed QO Load Center (UL file E6294, Vol. 8).
The QOCGK2 and QORBGK2 do not carry their own UL number. They are listed as accessories only when used with the correct QO load center under UL file E6294 volume 7 section 16 page 1."
"Is the generator interlock kit, K-5010, for QO and Homeline loadcenters, a Square D product?
This generator interlock is by a third party company called Generator Interlock Technologies out of Richmond, VA. They make various load center interlock kits for all the major load center manufacturers. This is not a Square D product. If this generator Interlock kit was used on a QO or Homeline load center, it would void the UL Listing, and the Square D warranty!"
From Frequently Asked Questions
"What is the UL file number for QOCGK2, QOCRBGK1 and QORBGK2 ?
The Square D Generator Circuit Breaker Interlock Kit, catalog number QOCGK2, QOCRBGK1 and QORBGK2 is a UL Recognized Component listed in UL File E6294, Vol. 7, Section 16, when installed in a listed QO Load Center (UL file E6294, Vol. 8).
The QOCGK2 and QORBGK2 do not carry their own UL number. They are listed as accessories only when used with the correct QO load center under UL file E6294 volume 7 section 16 page 1."
grsthegreat
Super Star Member
Ok, heres the poop, at least for the Siemens brand interlock sets sold by my wholesale house.
NONE of their generator interlocks are UL approved. None.
Aparently anytime you alter ANYTHING that is UL approved you void that UL Listing.
They told me they can get me an interlock that will work, but i take it upon myself if i install it. Aparently they have had complaints of Inspectors red tagging their jobs for using them, so they dont stock them anymore.
Also as an intersting sidenote. He told me that one customer installed an entire gas station with the new LED t-8 style florescent lamps. Aparently you have to remove the ballast and install these lamps cause they run at 120 volts. The guy comes to find out after $1,000s spent that he had voided the UL rating of the fixtures and is now in a battle with the state inspector.
**** that UL ... messing up all my plans. I thought the interlock was a good thought, i guess ill go back to the way ive been doing it all along.
NONE of their generator interlocks are UL approved. None.
Aparently anytime you alter ANYTHING that is UL approved you void that UL Listing.
They told me they can get me an interlock that will work, but i take it upon myself if i install it. Aparently they have had complaints of Inspectors red tagging their jobs for using them, so they dont stock them anymore.
Also as an intersting sidenote. He told me that one customer installed an entire gas station with the new LED t-8 style florescent lamps. Aparently you have to remove the ballast and install these lamps cause they run at 120 volts. The guy comes to find out after $1,000s spent that he had voided the UL rating of the fixtures and is now in a battle with the state inspector.
**** that UL ... messing up all my plans. I thought the interlock was a good thought, i guess ill go back to the way ive been doing it all along.
