Generator install - where to start

[WinterDeere]

After 15 years of back-feeding our house with a portable generator, while also trying to run a business out of our home and having my wife work remotely from home, I've accepted the reality that we need a whole house generator. Trouble is, only feasible location for electrical penetration into the house is out front, where the service mains (and well plumbing, and oil fills) enter, whereas our only fuel source (LP) is out back behind the pool. This is an "effing huge" house, we're talking several hundred feet of utility run to bring electric 'round bacj to near the LP tank, or to bring gas 'round front to near the electrical penetration.

I'm normally "everything DIY", and 10 years ago, I'd have been out there trenching myself, and rigging up the core drill for the required foundation penetrations. Hell, I installed my own heated in-ground swimming pool five years ago. But life and schedule changes, theres just no way I have time to deal with a full DIY install myself, today.

So here's the question: who do you call? A local electrician? Our LP gas company? Generac? How does one get this process started, for what is sure to be a relatively complex and "not straightforward" installation?

Complicating matters more than the sheer distance between fuel source and electrical mains, is the fact that this house has 7 breaker panels, most filled completely to capacity. Nothing is straightforward, here.

 

[Tpondel]

When we built our place a few years back we consulted the local electrical shop on placement. They then handled the installation and wiring.

They also do the annual maintenance on it.

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm sort of in the same situation and hoping for some words of wisdom from those that have done this already.

In my case I had this really bad idea that I needed two 200 amp panels in my house. One for the shop/garage and one for the living area. In hindsight, I didn't need two panels. In order to power everything with one generator I'm getting rid of one of the panels. Eventually that power line will go to a new shop that I'm going to build sometime in the future. I'm slowly working on rewiring the shop/garage while converting it into a huge living room. Once done I'll have everything powered off of one 200 amp panel.

I have a natural gas line along my driveway. I'm going to put the meter by the driveway, but then run the gas line to the back of my house, which is just over 100 feet away, to the 200 amp panel. I'll install the generator off of the back of the house, about 20 feet from the 200 amp panel.

Once I'm done, I should be able to power everything from the generator and run it from what I hope is an unlimited supply of Natural Gas.

I haven't contacted anybody yet, but Generac is probably at the top of my list. I know a few people with Generac systems, and they seem to work really well. My plan is to have the Natural gas line run to the location, the wire for the generator to the panel to be installed, and for them to install the generator and make the connection to the panel.

 

[oldnslo]

The place I purchased the generator from approximately 12 years ago also installed it. I supplied the posts for mounting the transfer switch and contacted my propane supplier about running gas line. In my case the generator and transfer switch had to be located within site of the electric meter to meet local codes at that time.

Do you know any electricians that you can ask about code requirements on transfer switch and or generator location relative to electric meter?

 

[WinterDeere]

In my case the generator and transfer switch had to be located within site of the electric meter to meet local codes at that time.

Are you sure it was generator and transfer switch, within site of meter? Were you given a reason for this requirement?

If I put generator out by propane tank, to keep propane line short, then it'll be nowhere near in-sight of meter. Transfer switch would go near meter, but possibly indoors, also out of sight.

 

[Shawn T. W.]

I'd call the generator store you plan on getting it from ...

Mine was already installed when I bought my house, they installed the transfer switch right to the last pole, where the meter is, then it goes underground to the house ...

 

[ponytug]

@WinterDeere as you heat with fuel oil, I would not overlook diesel generators.

@WinterDeere @EddieWalker As to whom to call, I would do your homework on what brands/models you are interested in. Around here the generator sales groups will either tell you what you need (LPG tank size, regulator(s) flow/pressure and location(s) and line size, and then your propane service or a plumber does the pipe work...)

Do you have an idea of how much power you require? (Absolute minimum, comfortable, maximum likely usage?) One generator can feed more than one transfer switch, and one transfer switch can feed multiple panels. 200/400/600A home service?

I believe that the requirements for the generator emergency cutoff arises from the NEC and your local AHJ, so you will need to check.

It costs more, but if your power goes out more than once or twice a year, I would consider a generator plus battery storage system, for several reasons; first, the batteries come online somewhere between instantaneously and a couple of seconds, second, the battery plus generator can often provide extra surge power needed to start large loads, and thirdly, the generator can run at maximum efficiency recharging the batteries, and then shutdown, giving you both an energy savings and more quiet time.

YMMV...

All the best, Peter

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

How many hours a year do you lose power on average?
If you've decided on Generac, let them give you a price.

 

[WinterDeere]

How many hours a year do you lose power on average?

I honestly haven't kept track. A few years, such as the 2011 ice storms or hurricane Sandy in 2012, we lost power for 4 days at a time. Same happened in 2019, when a rare tornado blew thru, I think we were out more than 2 days for that. But then there are some years we don't lose power at all. I'd guess we might be somewhere around 50 hours per year on average, but maybe less, and with a huge standard deviation.

If you've decided on Generac, let them give you a price.

I have not decided on Generac, they're just the most advertised name that everyone knows. They could be the very worst of all options, for all I know!

 

[drssg]

The standard approach with Generac was to get two quotes from authorized installers in your area. They would have input regarding the appropriate approach for your setup. I like DIY projects, but I stay away from fatal levels of electricity.

One of the decisions is whether the generator will power the whole house or a subset of circuits. The whole house approach is more convenient, but it assumes the occupants will use common sense to not overload the generator.

If you are heating with oil and your furnace is old, it *might* be worth switching to propane. I find it nice to have a large buried propane tank to power the furnace and generator.

Good luck. I LOVE having the automatic generator backup.

 

[ponytug]

For both @WinterDeere and @EddieWalker, your home power systems are large enough that I would start at the industrial/commercial generator suppliers first. The Generac home units may be cheaper, but given the size of your electrical service I suspect that you will be better taken care of by the commercial generator suppliers and service companies.

I can't speak generally, but around here there is a world of difference in training, knowledge, and competence between the residential generator technicians and the commercial technicians. The commercial technicians are much more skilled.

One item that I think often doesn't get the attention it deserves is thinking through and addressing energy efficiency in the house. (Yes, @WinterDeere, I realize that there are some big limits for your home. I can't really see the cost/benefits of doing the UK style of an outer layer waterproof insulation, followed by a new layer of stone facing.)

@drssg brings up a couple of very relevant points; again, do the energy budget, and then try to stick close to it in an outage, burying the propane tank for a generator will enable the generator to access more fuel from the tank in freezing conditions, and related, if you are going to use a generator and heat from propane, putting in a second tank just for the generator is something I highly recommend. I have seen far too many folks on standby power happily use their generator at full bore, and then run out of propane for heat because their power usage. Around here, propane companies prioritize refueling propane used for heat during and after an emergency event, and will only refuel generator tanks when the heating needs have been addressed. YMMV. Again, battery storage can help your genset run at its most efficient point, probably prolonging your off grid time.

All the best,

Peter

 

[grsthegreat]

With such a huge house, your definitely going to need to decide whether to power entire house or just a portion of the house. As for natural gas runs, after the regulator pressure drop will require huge pipe sizes to power a generator over a long run from regulator.

What we usually see is either increasing gas flow to 2# pressure and installing secondary regulators at every device, or running dedicated high pressure lines just to the generator and a secondary at regulator.

I have a 4000sf home with 4 panels in house. However all my major appliances are gas. Im able to power entire home plus barn (heated tack room and 4 water troughs) with a 22kw air cooled.

Youll definitely need a detailed load calculation done on your home. You may be entering a liquid cooled sized unit only. If you go liquid cooled, pay the extra and go 1,800 rpm.

As for location of generator vs transfer switch. Alot of this issue has gone away with the requirement of a remote generator kill switch requirement if generator is remote from meter/transfer switch. An additional 2 control wires allows for a kill switch at service panel.

I had one client with a 8000 sf home that insisted on powering everything. Has a 130kw propane generator that sucks down 22 gallons of propane an hour while operating. But he wanted to make sure his towel warmers stayed warm during an outage.

 

[oldnslo]

Are you sure it was generator and transfer switch, within site of meter? Were you given a reason for this requirement?

If I put generator out by propane tank, to keep propane line short, then it'll be nowhere near in-sight of meter. Transfer switch would go near meter, but possibly indoors, also out of sight.

If and I repeat if my memory is correct they wanted both the generator and transfer switch with in site of the meter. I believe some safety code so that lineman or power company personal could verify no power being back fed into the incoming lines or grid. The county I live in has rules that neighboring counties do not have so this might have been a county thing vs national electric code.

For me running high pressure propane line to gen set and installing pressure regulator there was very simple.

 

[grsthegreat]

I found over the years, on ranch property alot of the time they have the main meter and disconnects located far from the house. I like this as i can install the generator away from the house to lessen noise, and i can install as many transfer switches as necessary to power different panels. Its sometimes cheaper to buy another propane tank (or lease) for a remote location than to trench around an entire house damaging sprinkler, phone, cable and power lines.

 

[Highlandr]

Given the situation...

This is an "effing huge" house...

Complicating matters more than the sheer distance between fuel source and electrical mains, is the fact that this house has 7 breaker panels, most filled completely to capacity. Nothing is straightforward, here.

... this would be my approach.

I would start at the industrial/commercial generator suppliers first. The Generac home units may be cheaper, but given the size of your electrical service I suspect that you will be better taken care of by the commercial generator suppliers and service companies.

I can't speak generally, but around here there is a world of difference in training, knowledge, and competence between the residential generator technicians and the commercial technicians. The commercial technicians are much more skilled.

I think you're looking for a turnkey solution.

Were I in your shoes I have an enormous advantage in that I worked with the same electrical contractor for 30 years at my former employer and they did four commercial generator installs for us in addition to some work for me personally. I trust them unequivocally. Point is, I think the homework required to find an outfit with the experience and creds is going to be the hardest part of this. Good luck!

 

[Shawn T. W.]

My 16KW Generac propane burns 1.5 gallons an hour, I'm not home a lot so not really sure how much it runs, I have 3 UPS's for the more critical stuff that I don't want a hard shut off before the 1 minute it takes to get the generator online ... While I can't run everything at once obviously, I can run the house ac and well at the same time ...

Cummins makes a good generator, if you have a dealer nearby I'd check with them ... diesels tend to only run at 1800 RPM, vs most propane units run at 3600 RPM ... While I think mine is quiet, supposedly the low rpm units are even better ... And last longer.

 

[WinterDeere]

The standard approach with Generac was to get two quotes from authorized installers in your area. They would have input regarding the appropriate approach for your setup.

Okay, that makes sense. So Generac uses authorized installers, they don't handle install themselves?

One of the decisions is whether the generator will power the whole house or a subset of circuits. The whole house approach is more convenient, but it assumes the occupants will use common sense to not overload the generator.

Powering the whole house is the only way to go, here. In fact that's the only reason I'd bother, as the portable genny works well enough for back-feeding critical circuits. Besides, I anticipate a very large fraction of the install cost is fixed, not varying that much with unit size.

If you are heating with oil and your furnace is old, it *might* be worth switching to propane. I find it nice to have a large buried propane tank to power the furnace and generator.

I understand your logic, there, but I will never switch anything to gas or propane. We have that tank because it was already buried in the back yard when we bought the house, but we still have a few appliances that use it. But we've already had one very close call to a "major event" due to a failed feed line into the house, and I see too many stories on the news of house explosions. I just don't think the risk is ever worth the reward, when it comes to bringing gas into a home.

That said, my oil tank is right next to the mains panel in the basement utility room. I'd have to siphon oil up to outside from the basement, and somehow hide an ugly generator right in our front garden, but going diesel would solve the issue of running a few hundred feet of gas or electric, to make the thing run on LP.

Also, since we use so much oil (~1000 gal./year), we're on automatic delivery for that, and the tank is always full. It takes me 2 - 3 years to use up our 500 gal. propane tank, so I don't have any automatic delivery arranged for that, at present. I just have to decide if I can tolerate having a generator right out front, outside our kitchen window, versus hiding out back behind the pool and patio where no one can see, hear, or smell it.

Good luck. I LOVE having the automatic generator backup.

Yeah, I am looking forward to not having to set up the back-feed, and to having more stable power when on generator.

 

[Shawn T. W.]

I can't hear my 3600 RPM generator from inside my house, and from my driveway maybe 30'-35' away it's easily ignored or talked over ... I'd imagine that they all have DB ratings ... If you wanted I'd imagine the local dealer could let you listen to one ...

I'd guess the diesel powered ones could have a pump to get from your basement up to it, but then would you want winter treated fuel for your whole house?

They make some kind of "priority switch" that divided up the power so you don't need 100 kw unit ... Say you put your furnace on the priority list, it will always have power, but your light in the garage only work if there is extra power not being needed by something "priority" ... Don't know the official term, sorry.

 

[drssg]

Okay, that makes sense. So Generac uses authorized installers, they don't handle install themselves?

I believe that's true. In my case, the installation and any required maintenance has been handled by local businesses that are not named Generac. They may also do other non-Generac business.

I just have to decide if I can tolerate having a generator right out front, outside our kitchen window, versus hiding out back behind the pool and patio where no one can see, hear, or smell it.

Ours is installed near our kitchen window, but it's on the back side of the house. It doesn't look bad, and I've never smelled anything from it. The noise is a little annoying, but it beats being without power.