Generator Selection?

[grsthegreat]

A backup generator is way different than an off grid generator. A 3600 rpm unit is just fine for the occasional power disruption. I install these things and even i could not justify the price of an 1800 RPM generator for the limited power outages we experience. In 3 years ive had 50 hours of generator use.

Small portables are also fine for occasional use. But i have seen some major damage done to motors, refer units, wells and tv’s due to cheap chinese junk generators out in the field. I also know one guy that built a huge 6,000 sf custom home with a harbor freight predator generator and it ran every day. You just never know.

The only reason i replaced my manual 5kw propane generator with a whole house system is so my wife wouldnt have to deal with running a generator if i was away during power outage (that and i got gen for free). My older Onan 1800 rpm generator was a troublefree delight. I kind of wish i never sold it. It was over 20 years old when i sold it.

 

[Diggin It]

When I say 'long term', I mean years whether I use it or not. Our outages are usually less than 12 hours and only a couple each year at most. A few have been 2-3 days. Two have been 10 days plus, but those were after serious storms that did damage over several counties.

If I can get by on $1,000 or so instead of over $3,000 even if it means I have to go outside to start it and do the transfer, I'd be OK with it.

Until now I was using a 7500 portable and/or a 2K inverter unit on extension cords to the things I needed powered. I now have the 7500 outside (sheltered) connected to the ATS so that everything in the house is powered with no extension cords. Remains to be seen how well that will work during a real outage. And no, I don't want to burn out appliance motors or electronics by using a portable. That's what I mean by 'getting by' on one instead of going to a fixed unit. This portable is aging though and has issues, hence the questions about a newer, bigger one. One that runs on LP will let me not have to keep so much gasoline on hand.

 

[Welshman]

A backup generator is way different than an off grid generator. A 3600 rpm unit is just fine for the occasional power disruption. I install these things and even i could not justify the price of an 1800 RPM generator for the limited power outages we experience. In 3 years ive had 50 hours of generator use.

Small portables are also fine for occasional use. But i have seen some major damage done to motors, refer units, wells and tv’s due to cheap chinese junk generators out in the field. I also know one guy that built a huge 6,000 sf custom home with a harbor freight predator generator and it ran every day.

What would cause this? What component of the generator would be the issue, and how does one know?

 

[grsthegreat]

alot of the cheapo chinese generators have crappy alternator and windings. some are even aluminum instead of copper. you would not believe the number of units ive been called on to invesitigate. especially odd are the units that show 240 VAC and equil 120C when unloaded, but once you put a load on the generator one leg shoots to 170 Volts and the other drops to 70 volts or some such numbers. and poof go light bulbs, led lighting especially, tvs, refer motors, etc.

seen it too many times to count. always some branded chinese junk unit. (preditor especially noted)

 

[Diggin It]

HOW DID THIS HAPPEN???????

I just got notice that the 16KW I ordered a few weeks ago is at my local store ready for pickup!!! Last I knew, it wasn't scheduled to be shipped until April at the earliest. I was planning on that delay to save some money up for the first couple of payments. Plus, I don't have the LP tank moved or ready for it.

I ordered it on November 26th and even now looking at the order screen it shows a pickup date of May 5th, but also shows Ready For Pickup.

 

[grsthegreat]

Like anyone can believe online shipping trackers.

 

[Diggin It]

Yet it showed up in about 5 weeks instead of the 14-16 everyone claimed.

 

[grsthegreat]

If its really there. I was told my transfer switch had arrived at shipping facility.....and a short 4 weeks later... it did.

 

[Diggin It]

I have no idea how this arrived in 4 weeks instead of the 14+ everybody was saying.

Really screwed up my scheduling though.

 

[grsthegreat]

You lucked out. I know many installers not being able to get units installed...cause there are no generators out there. Im just goad im now retired and no longer have to worry about it.

I did have one HOA contact me that they want to go ahead with the bid. I dud the bid 3-4 years ago. I told them i may still do the job...but i will have to rebid cost. Have not heard back. Maybe in 4 years they will call me back. Also, their bid was for a 13 kw..... they wernt happy when i told them those are no longer made.

 

[Diggin It]

Saw something going through the PDF manual weeks ago about using 1" bars to lift the unit off the pallet. Can't find it in the printed book that came packed inside. I think the holes are the same ones the pallet tie downs are using. (Edit, I see it now. Small diagram on page 50.)

I need to get the composite pad out to use it to line up the J anchors when I pour the concrete.

But first I need to go back and get more concrete. Couldn't carry any more weight today.

And why is the main internal breaker only 70A?

 

[LouNY]

Saw something going through the PDF manual weeks ago about using 1" bars to lift the unit off the pallet. Can't find it in the printed book that came packed inside. I think the holes are the same ones the pallet tie downs are using. (Edit, I see it now. Small diagram on page 50.)

I need to get the composite pad out to use it to line up the J anchors when I pour the concrete.

But first I need to go back and get more concrete. Couldn't carry any more weight today.

And why is the main internal breaker only 70A?

16KW = 16,000 watts
16,000 watts / 240 Volt = 66.66666 AMPS

 

[grsthegreat]

you dont need to disconnect anything. dont take the pad off. simply place the generator onto the concrete pad THEN drill out the front 2 anchor holes later on and install 2 Simpson bolts with an impact hammer. putting the bolts into the concrete first SUCKS. if its a little off, your screwed.

i use the 3/8" x 6" Simpson Titen bolt (THD37600H). the trick is to drill completely thru concrete and vacuum hole, redrill and revacuum than impact it in. works GREAT.



i usually install all 3 myself, but for the rear one you will need an 18" long impact drill bit, and not many people have that in their tool boxes ( i have 2).And really, with just the front 2 installed, nothing is going to move a 500# generator.

By the way, if you remove the bolts attaching the composite pad, good luck trying to resecure it to the generator. the nuts are internal and fall out when you remove the bolts. the only thing that will keep the 2 pieces together afterwards will be the anchor bolt.

i use a transport cart to move and set my generators, but 2 - 3/4" iron pipes and 2 web straps (moving straps with sewed loops) work just as well. will need a strong back and 2 strong and stupid people. i have had to move these units in the past and if the straps are just perfectly placed, 2 people can jog them into place pretty easily.

the absolutely easiest way is a tractor, a set of pallet forks and 2 longer moving straps. heres me moving a larger liquid cooled with this method. the air cooled are moved same way.

 

[Diggin It]

3/4 pipe would work if I had any, which I don't. I do have enough 1" steel bar I can cut. I had planned on doing what you show for the last move into place, but I might use the BH ... not sure yet. Also might use a chainfall. I've got a HF 1 ton and a load leveller.

The cardboard box top has the template for the holes. Think I might set the back one into the concrete, then drill the two front ones later. Pad will need to set for a week at least before I can put weight on it due to temperatures.

What do you charge for the batteries? I'm seeing all sorts of silly prices on the web, but will check some local auto parts stores. 26R 540CCA doesn't seem like it should be anything odd.

Also, they call out a 3/4 ball valve with a test port P/N 0K8754. I can't find anything like that locally, but haven't checked with the local dealer yet.

I'm seeing 6 control and sense wires? I have some 18/8 that I can use since it will only be about 10-15 feet.

 

[grsthegreat]

dont use thermostat wires. the circuit has to be rated minimum 300 volts per Generac (need to meet 600VAC requirements here in Idaho). you would not believe the issues i have had to fix with small gauge control wires. if you have short runs just go to HD and get some #12 or #14 wire cut off the spools. get the proper colors. if you mess up the control wires and fry the controller.....Generac wont repair it. Alot of thermostat wire is sized ok, but the insulation sucks for high voltage use. 3 of the 6 control wires are carrying 120 volts. I have seen insulation failures cause many issues over the years.

personally i use special Generac control wire. its 7 conductor, trac cable rated control wire. it is color coated to eliminate any issues. 600V rated and can be used anywhere...direct buried, in walls, in pipe, whatever.

i buy the stuff in 500 foot spools. worth every penny.

I buy Exide batteries direct from supplier. get 10-20 at a time. my cost is pretty cheap...like real cheap. i cant say here. but the prices online show Napa and auto stores get about $120 for the battery. any brand Group 26R battery works fine, and should go 5 years without any issue. dont use a battery heater as they cause nothing but trouble. Gell batteries are good also, but too expensive for my taste. I can say from experience dont use Walmart group26 batteries......ive had to replace soo many that are only a few years old. not sure whats up with them. i have only needed to warranty 1 Exide battery and that was due to defective battery heater. these batteries just seem to last. also make sure you use a good paste conductor protector on battery cable ends to prevent corrosion.

in all the units i have unpackaged over the years, i have never noticed a bolt pattern on cardboard. go figure. probably because the first thing i do is rip open the box as its is sitting on lift gate. If i dont inspect upon delivery, i am responsible for any damage. i have to inspect PRIOR to touching box with my forklift, and refuse delivery if there is any damage. i have seen so many generators with forks stuck thru the sides of unit over the years. about a year ago i saw a pristine looking gen and box come down the lift, we tore open the top and the side was skewered with a forklift. I have NO idea how it was done with no box damage. The driver was dumbstruck. Took alot of skill to pierce under the cardboard and destroy unit.

You do not need a test port on the shut off valve. Any Full port gas shut off valve is fine. i dont know if you have propane or Nat Gas. if you have propane the regulator will have a test port. The generator has 2 test ports on the demand regulator inside the generator. i always hook up to the inside test port when commissioning a generator. the lower test port will activate when unit is starting and running only. this is best place to test unit.

 

[Diggin It]

The 18/8 I have on hand is supposed to be 300V rated ... Honeywell Genesis 3117. I can use 14THHN if I can find the colors, or I can add tape or heat shrink in colors. Looks like I need two yellows though for the AC sense?

I looked at the special cable, but the best price I can find is something like $7/ft plus shipping. Nobody stocks it locally, not even the installing dealers.

Bolt pattern on this one is on the big, wide inner top flap that hinges from the front panel side of the box.

 

[grsthegreat]

The 18/8 I have on hand is supposed to be 300V rated ... Honeywell Genesis 3117. I can use 14THHN if I can find the colors, or I can add tape or heat shrink in colors. Looks like I need two yellows though for the AC sense?

I looked at the special cable, but the best price I can find is something like $7/ft plus shipping. Nobody stocks it locally, not even the installing dealers.

Bolt pattern on this one is on the big, wide inner top flap that hinges from the front panel side of the box.

id cut off a section of wire and mail it to you, but shipping would cost more than the wire.

all i know about honeywell wire is its thermostat rated. have no idea how it would hold up. in the past few weeks on a generator forum i have had to help 3 different people with issues about generator starting for no known reason. all 3 turned out to be shorted and corroded thermostat wires. all im saying. the 2 yellow wires are load sensing (240 volts) the blue is controller power (120V). the other 3 are 12 volt or grounding.

 

[Diggin It]

The only place I can find the multi-conductor cable is Ziller and they want $10/ft. Is that a Generac item or aftermarket?

Can you link or PM that generator forum?

 

[ponytug]

FWIW: I have found some pretty oddball cables at McMaster-Carr. (A tractor main harness cable that turns out to be elevator cable repurposed...)

As an alternative, you could get the wire colors you need, and run conduit.

Congratulations on getting the generator; 2020 wasn't exactly the year for timely deliveries.

All the best,

Peter

P.S. Thanks to grsthegreat who is amazing; he helped get my neighbor's Generac working after months and months of issues. She's a happy camper now.

 

[cdaigle430]

16KW = 16,000 watts
16,000 watts / 240 Volt = 66.66666 AMPS

Yup, Mine is also a Generac 16KW with a 70 amp breaker tied to a whole house 200 amp auto switch.