Generator

[Whitey]

After the fifth blackout this summer.......and having it happen just before dark when everyone wants a shower Has anyone ever rigged up a A/C generator and ran it from a rear PTO and back fed their house?

Seems I have heard of this some time ago......I just want enough juice to run a well and a hot water tank and after that a freezer or fridge and maybe a furnace if it was in the winter time.

Maybe this is too much to ask. I have looked at commercial natural gas generators and I don't have the budget for one. Gasoline is next but I was curious about the PTO driven one if they exist. I am almost ashamed to admit my dependency on electricity.

Thanx

JD 770 / 70 FEL / 7 BH - 425 AWS / 54" MMM / 54" FMP

 

[jas67]

PTO-driven generators seem to sell for much more than their consumer-grade gas-engine-driven counterparts of a similar size.

I use a 5 KW gas-driven generator for my emergency power needs. I have oil-fired heat (with circulator pump), oil-fired hot water, propane-stove well-water, a freezer, and of course refridgerator.

This generator more than meets my needs. Not liking gasoline engines that don't get run often, and their associated carb-gumming problems, I have since purchased a surplus 6 KW Onan Diesel generator (1800 RPM), gov't surplus (govliquidation.com). It is a permanent-installation type, but I'm going to mount it to a small harbor-freight trailer with a 10 gal fuel tank (no built-in tank). I paid $400 for this generator -- far less than a PTO one. Since it is diesel, I have a large supply of fuel (oil-heat) on site in case of a long wide-spread outage makes fuel hard to get.

If you have an electric hot water heater, it will need 3-4 KW just by iteself, so I'd recommend a 10 KW generator in that case.

Unlike some other things, bigger is not better. Do not buy more than you'll actually need, as these things can use as much as 50% of full-load fuel consumption at idle. My Onan specs .65 gal/hour at full load, and .35 at 1/4 load (which is over half of full load).

All that said, I'd still like to buy a PTO generator if I find the right deal (one less engine to maintain), but you can't beat some of the values on used surplus Diesel generators.

Also, do not backfeed with a normal breaking. Spend the money on a proper transfer switch.

 

[RonMar]

Not sure how many HP you have available, but you need 2HP per KW of electrical load. IF you have a very large tractor, as mentioned, it might not be very economical running it to power your house loads.

You need a transfer switch, a transferable sub panel, or an interlocked circuit breaker to safely and legally shift between commercial and generator power. A whole house transfer switch is an involved and expensive process as the main power to your house needs to be shutoff for the installation. Liscensed inspectors and electricians both hired by you and from local utility must be involved.

They make sub panel kits where only the items in that sub panel are capable of being powered off the generator. These are reasonably easy to install, and similar to installing a new circuit into an existing panel(doable by a knowledgable homeowner). Their drawback is that the number of circuits is limited, and only those circuits relocated to this sub panel can be fed by the generator.

They also make main panel backfeed retrofit kits for most electrical panels. This kit installs a sliding plate between the main breaker and a breaker that goes to your generator. The sliding panel is designed so that only one of these two breakers can be on at a time, either the main breaker providing commercial power, or the backfeed breaker providing generator power, but never both. This kit is far more economical and practical for occasional backup power shifts IMO. They are much easier to install than the other two options. They are also more versatile in that it allows you to feed power to everything that is wired into your panel, within the limits of your generator of course, just like a whole house transfer switch does. These kits are UL approved and run about $150, and can be installed by an electrically savy homeowner. Generator InterLock Kit - Introduction

Backfeeding a panel improperly, without this safety interlock can do serious damage to your wiring and generator, and could allow the possibility that a careless lineman could be injured with you being liable for any and all results of this illegal act.

As with anything electrical, if you are the slightest bit in doubt of your knowledge and skills with electricity, best to hire a professional to do the wiring.

 

[chh]

A pto generator is great. They are a very low maintainence item in my experience. As mentioned, you really need a transfer switch. If you don't have a transfer switch stick to running necessary items from extension cords.
The one we have is a left over from when we owned a commercial hog facility so it is 40 kw continous and 60 kw surge. A little oversized for a house. It is defintely not straining at all even when we are running the A/C ect. Here is a pic of a MF 1433V running it about a month ago during an early morning power failure. All my other tractors where out in the hayfield, so this was the only one home to run it. It did a good job, but we only using the fridge, freezer and well pump( and the coffee maker ) This rig needs all of 75 pto hp when it was near full load running the hog barns. You can see the top of the manual transfer switch behind the meter.

 

[schmism]

After the fifth blackout this summer.......and having it happen just before dark when everyone wants a shower Has anyone ever rigged up a A/C generator and ran it from a rear PTO and back fed their house?

you should really search more.. there is volumes on this subject on this site, everything from gen heads, to spirited discussions concerning backfeeding your main panel etc.

 

[jas67]

Not sure how many HP you have available, but you need 2HP per KW of electrical load. IF you have a very large tractor, as mentioned, it might not be very economical running it to power your house loads.

I forgot to mention this (actually, I did mention it in another post about hydraulic drive for generators in the hydraulic section, which is why I forgot it here). If you are using a larger tractor than needed ( I.E., a 30 HP tractor for 10 KW, where 20 HP would do, or in my case a 16 HP tractor, when 10 HP would do for the 5KW needed), you can always run a lower engine speed with a higher PTO speed. My B7100 has a two speed PTO, 876 and 540. Most, if not all PTO generators need 540 RPM, I can get this at 2800 engine RPM, or 1730 engine RPM at the higher PTO speed. With a 5 KW load (even with a larger-sized PTO generator) this engine speed and gear choice would be fuel efficient for my needs.

Also, you will want a way to measure the line frequency if the generator you purchase does not have a frequency meter on it. Frequency varies with engine speed, so adjust your throttle/governor accordingly. Many digital multimeters (like my 15 yr old Fluke 83) have frequency. You need 60 Hz +/- 3% for any motor loads, and for that mater anything that has a transformer needs to be no less than 55 Hz, or it may start drawing too much current. The other issue, is the generator may not regular voltage properly if speed is too far off.

 

[jas67]

Check out this link:
Tractor-Driven Generators: Producing Quality Power

I found it on this thread:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/126442-generator-question.html

 

[Whitey]

WOW!!! Thanks much to all that have posted.......I have my work cut out for me. I do believe that all are right that spoke about the transfer switch, this would only make sense and provide safety. The back feed comment from me was brought about by thinking I could remotely feed my house through a sub feed from my shop. That way a tractor driven or natural gas driven generator would be 102' from my house. Put it behind or in the machine storage beside and you would not hear it as much.

It is a shame to live in dependency of electricity but after upgrading all of my gas fired appliances to high efficiency to save $$$$$$$ they require electricity for their exhaust blowers. We like to live independently however there are limitations. I just want to have an option so I can keep the family as comfortable as I can.

I will let you know how it turned out.

JD 770 / 70 FEL / 7 BH - 425 AWS / 54" MMM / 54" FMP

 

[Highbeam]

Your needs put you into the PTO generator category. Check out the northern tool products. The generator will be over 1000$.

Fully electric water heaters need lots of juice. Mine is fed with a 30 amp 220 volt breaker for nearly 6000 watts. Well pumps have a surge when they start that can draw as much as 3-5x their nameplate wattage, so a 1/2 HP pump can draw 2000 watts. Fridge can be an easy 1000.

Shoot for no less than a 10KW PTO genny. If you have enough tractor for more KW and the additional cost is small then you can spin a higher capacity genny and not burn any more fuel doing it.

I equipped my all electric home with an interlock transfer device and a 3500 watt gasoline genset that is not capable of completely powering my home. I will turn off the water heater and hot tub which are big and automatic starters, and then manage my other power needs like the microwave and range to stay within the abilities of the smaller genset. We don't need AC and the water is from a well with its own genset.

 

[Soundguy]

This has worked for me... get the genny and have the well pump up water to make sure the hot water heater is full, then swap over and power the water heater for about 20 minutes to get some hot water built up. now.. if you don't have much genny, swap back over tot he well, and then get in the shower.. the genny keeps the well going and pressure up.. and you have as much hot water as your WH holds.. till it goes cold. if you have alot of genny.. you can keep both the Wh and well going.

remember.. don't backfeed the grid.. if you wire up something.. do it point to point and take it out of the system.. etc..

soundguy

After the fifth blackout this summer.......and having it happen just before dark when everyone wants a shower Has anyone ever rigged up a A/C generator and ran it from a rear PTO and back fed their house?

Seems I have heard of this some time ago......I just want enough juice to run a well and a hot water tank and after that a freezer or fridge and maybe a furnace if it was in the winter time.

Maybe this is too much to ask. I have looked at commercial natural gas generators and I don't have the budget for one. Gasoline is next but I was curious about the PTO driven one if they exist. I am almost ashamed to admit my dependency on electricity.

Thanx

JD 770 / 70 FEL / 7 BH - 425 AWS / 54" MMM / 54" FMP

 

[Soundguy]

PTO-driven generators seem to sell for much more than their consumer-grade gas-engine-driven counterparts of a similar size.

.

Not sure what planet you live on.. but doller per KW.. I've never seen a pto genset cost more than a unit with it's own engine.. chinese units included.

My 12.5kw pto get cost me 1000$.. where can you buy a gas powerd 12.5kw genny for that $$ ?? I'd like to know..

soundguy

 

[KeithInSpace]

My 12.5kw pto get cost me 1000$

No disrespect at all, but a quick check does not yield those types of prices. I saw a 7kW unit for $1k, but it goes up from there. Not that it is unreasonably expensive, but it looks like you got a pretty good deal.

For the sake of discussion, I'd say that you could get less expensive gas-powered GenSets that are priced better than PTO units, and "premium" GenSets that are more expensive. Depends on what you want to buy.

In my particular situation, I have well and septic, gas heat, and gas water heater. I have a 400A (two panel) service.

I installed "generator" breakers that go to two 30A RV-style twist-lock receptacles that, in turn, connect to my custom two-into-one 15 foot long 30A cable that connects to my 5.5kW Briggs and Stratton GenSet I got at Homey Depot for $600.

To fire it up, I just wheel the generator to the yard, connect all the ends, start the generator, cut myself free from the power company using the main breakers, and turn each panel to generator power using the two 30A "generator" breakers. I also have several breakers marked to be turned off, such as the electric oven, washer, dryer, and the A/C compressors.

Sometimes I have a small problem keeping the generator lit if everything hits at once when I FIRST start it up (well pump, sump pump, and a bunch of lights my wife left on). But after that first few minutes of surge, I have left it running for nearly 24 hours with no trouble at all. Amazingly, I've run it for that period of time and burning only 8 gallons or so of fuel.

That's how I do it...and THATS the problem I have with PTO generators. I have probably 60 hours of actual blackout time on my generator over the last 3 years. I'd much rather have that time on my POS Generator that I can throw away and replace anytime I want than on my VERY expensive tractor. The generator time alone would increase the hours on my machine by 33% (260 hours vs. my current 200 hours). Not to mention I'm leaving my machine OUTSIDE in the 2 foot snowstorm or the tropical storm that knocked out power in the first place.

I pay ~$500 for a very complete dealer service every 100 hours on my machine (don't yell at me...one of the few items I take VERY good care of), so if I'm forced to another service just to support my generator duties, I've almost PAID for a new generator in service costs alone.

I'm all about engine-count reduction, but these are simply my thoughts on the subject. They're worth every penny paid for them. Personally, I'll soldier on with my portable generators. When mine poops out, I'll either get TWO 7kW units or a single 10kW or 12kW unit. Maybe a perm installation. We'll see.

 

[jas67]

Northern Tool has a 7KW PTO generator for $899 -- it was on sale for $749 yesterday, but that sale appears to be over

NorthStar PTO Generator — 7200 Watt, 14 HP Required | PTO Generators | Northern Tool + Equipment

Here is a 7500 W gas-powered portable for $699:
All Power America Portable Generator — 7500 Watt, Model# APG3075 | 7,000 - 9,999 Watts | Northern Tool + Equipment

KeithInSpace has a point about the maintenance issues of using your tractor for emergency power, esp. when for short-term use a portable is a cheaper way to go.

 

[KeithInSpace]

Another minor point:

I have gasoline cars and other gasoline needs in my mower, weed-whacker, and chainsaw. Including the 5 gallons in my generator, I keep another 15 gallons on-hand.

The nice thing is that if I'm forced to, I can tap the 40+ gallons of fuel in both my vehicles and be self-sufficient power-wise for well over a week...probably over two if I went to running the Genny periodically in an extended outage.

I pour all my "stored" gasoline into my truck every 9 months or so and re-fill the cans to make 100% sure I have good gas when I need it (I stabilize, of course, but you can't be too careful).

If I had a diesel truck, another strategy may be called for, but this seems like a pretty good backup system to me.

Until my $600 POS generator has a carb diaphragm or pull-cord fail in the middle of a snowstorm. That'd be just my luck.

 

[jas67]

I have 550 Gallons of #2 fuel oil storage (same as diesel) in my basement for heating. I never let that get below 100 gallons. I always have plenty of fuel to run my Onan diesel generator. If I had a PTO generator, that would be a ncie backup to the Onan if it has a problem, because I could put that on my 'bota.


Its all in what you have on hand. And yet, I could tap my cars for gasoline for a gas generator, but then I couldn't drive out for emergency supplies (I guess I could take the 'bota if that was the case ).

 

[RonMar]

And yet, I could tap my cars for gasoline for a gas generator, but then I couldn't drive out for emergency supplies

If you can get gasoline during an extended outtage... the big storm they had year before last in Puget Sound opened quite a few eyes. Lotta people had generators, but couldn't get fuel for them cause the stations couldn't pump it out of their tanks...

 

[RalphVa]

Thought about a PTO driven unit but went with a separate 4400 watt unit that runs our kitchen, basement frig, freezer in carriage house, family room, master bedroom/bath and has enough left over to run alternatively: microwave, tiny titan heater for outside shower, heat pump for emergency heat in the basement (Soleus unit from Sams). When I want to repressurize the water system, I take everything down and run the pump until the pressure builds up. Lasts for quite a while. Haven't really figured out why I have to do this on the well pump, as it runs off a 10 amp breaker (but 220 volt; so, can be about half the generator's output on startup).

I just make sure I cut off the fuel to the engine and let the carb run dry when the power comes back on. Main problem I've had is keeping the battery charged to start the generator (you DO NOT want a pull start unit, or carefully buy one; had one impossible to pull start, but a friend's borrowed one time starts easily by hand). Used to start it once/month for 15-30 minutes. Not enough to keep the battery up. Now, I run a battery charger on timer to run about 1 hour/day trickle charge to the battery.

Natural gas or propane (propane only if its somewhere where a fuel leak can't accumulate) make a lot of sense because supplying fuel to the driver over a long period of no power can be a problem. Fortunately, my generator only requires about 1/2 gallon/hr. This is about what my tractor would need as well. I would NOT want to keep filling the tank on a big generator connected to a big tractor. Diesel, in place generator could start giving you algae or other problems unless you could also use enough in your tractor to provide enough replacement of it.

Ralph

 

[Diamondpilot]

Not sure what planet you live on.. but doller per KW.. I've never seen a pto genset cost more than a unit with it's own engine.. chinese units included.

My 12.5kw pto get cost me 1000$.. where can you buy a gas powerd 12.5kw genny for that $$ ?? I'd like to know..

soundguy

Soundguy and others

I was in this same situation a few years ago. We lost our power for 2 days so as soon as it came back on I started looking on the net. At the time I had a Ford 861 Powermaster Gas, about 38 HP on the pto. His JD 770 is a little less than 20 HP on the pto so he is quite limited. To get into a pto generator I was looking at $1500 for a 12K unit minimum through the web. I got a Troy Built Gas unit at Lowes for $799 on sale. Its 8K continuous and 13,500K surge. My wife said I was nuts and wasted my money. 2 months later we had a ice storm and lost our power for 8 days. I ran it continuously for those 8 days except to change the oil every other day or 50 hours and it used 9 gallons of gas per day. We are on a well, have propane heat, propane water heater, but the rest of our place is electric. We used it for everything, even the washer and dryer, not at the same time. She used the stove, ran our deep freezer, refridgerator, tv's, internet, lights ect. I am glad I did not go with a pto unit now because I needed the tractor to take care of the 14" of snow we got the 3 day of the 8 day outage and to start the cleanup of the debris of the ice storm.

Here is a link:
Troy Bilt Product Detail

Chris

 

[KeithInSpace]

The TroyBilt 5550 that pops up when you click on Mr. Diamondpilot's link...that's my EXACT Generator. That is what runs my ~5,000 sf house during periods of outage. It is a smidge undersized, but does quite well.

 

[Soundguy]

Northern has the 13kw units on sale for 1199$ right now..

NorthStar PTO Generator — 13,000 Watt, 24 HP Required | PTO Generators | Northern Tool + Equipment

If your 861 was only getting 38 hp on the pto I suggest you plug in the 4th spark plug wire.. those dudes make more like -48- pto hp.. which by the way is enough for about 24kw power generation...

For those that want to rely upon small disposable aluminum and zinc cast block whizz-bang lawnmower engines running 3600rpm with 5$ carbs for yuor emergency power needs.. go for it.

I -KNOW- my multi-thousand dollar high precision, non throw-away tractor engine is going to start when i turn the key.. and it don't care about setting out in the rain when it needs to.. it's made to -WORK-.. not hide.

For those worried about adding time to their tractor clock? 60 hours? that's meaningless in tractor lifespan terms.. those machines are designed to work at pto rpm, at rated load, till the fuel tank caves in..

When florida had the big storms in 2004.. you couldn't buy fuel for a couple weeks at one point. My 2 large diesels hold over 20g each, plus ai had about 25g in plastic containers, plus 30g in my pickup tank. After the first week.. I was the only one that had power on our block.. and I was the only one that had power at the end of the 2nd week too.. diesel just goes so much farther than gas when you look at those whizz-bang gennies.


It's a personal choice for sure.. trust a 200$ engine.. or a 4000$ engine to make power for you when you *really* need it choice was clear for me..

by the way.. at the time, the cheapest gas /self powerd genny I could find near that 13kw range was either a hobart welder genny in the 10kw range fro 2500$ or a generac 12kw or a 16kw unit.. 16kw unit was near 3000$.. 12kw unit was 2000$.. both gas.. I did see a diesel genny in the 10-12kw range.. forget the brand.. but was at a box store.. was 3500$.... heck.. for 3500$ i can almost go buy an old diesel ford tractor and a small pto genny!

soundguy

Soundguy and others

I was in this same situation a few years ago. We lost our power for 2 days so as soon as it came back on I started looking on the net. At the time I had a Ford 861 Powermaster Gas, about 38 HP on the pto. His JD 770 is a little less than 20 HP on the pto so he is quite limited. To get into a pto generator I was looking at $1500 for a 12K unit minimum through the web. I got a Troy Built Gas unit at Lowes for $799 on sale. Its 8K continuous and 13,500K surge. My wife said I was nuts and wasted my money. 2 months later we had a ice storm and lost our power for 8 days. I ran it continuously for those 8 days except to change the oil every other day or 50 hours and it used 9 gallons of gas per day. We are on a well, have propane heat, propane water heater, but the rest of our place is electric. We used it for everything, even the washer and dryer, not at the same time. She used the stove, ran our deep freezer, refridgerator, tv's, internet, lights ect. I am glad I did not go with a pto unit now because I needed the tractor to take care of the 14" of snow we got the 3 day of the 8 day outage and to start the cleanup of the debris of the ice storm.

Here is a link:
Troy Bilt Product Detail

Chris