Generators, sizes and fuel options?

[coldsteelva]

A true standby generator needs a minimum 250 gal propane tank. I have customers using 100 gal tanks, and they have nothing but trouble keeping them running.

The trick here that I don't think people think of is to use the generator as an electric source for a propane tank heater. Need initial pressure to fire the generator, generator powers the heat wrap, heat wrap boosts the vapor pressure, you can maintain pressure and use of the generator until most of the propane is expended. When deep cold is expected, power the blanket from house power so the tank heat is maintained and then if power goes out, you're already good to go. Blankets are available for 500 gal tanks down to 20lb bottles.

 

[check]

I see that no one has mentioned an automatic transfer switch. It is a big deal for us. Only cost $800, and our 17 kW Kohler propane powered generator comes on immediately when the power goes out. Very convenient, since it’s usually miserable outside when the power goes down (which seems to happen more and more these days).

Last power outage was over Christmas. We have a propane powered forced air furnace, and that’s it for propane. Meanwhile, we use the stove normally and cooked the turkey and everything. Also, the Kohler generators are very quiet, and we could hardly hear it even outside.

 

[CobyRupert]

The regulators will freeze up. You likely need a heated regulator to cure that regardless of tank size. What he’s taking about is the propane can’t transform from its liquid state to a gas fast enough to keep the generator supplied. The propane is essentially evaporating inside the tank. Cold slows the process. The bigger tank gives the liquid a larger surface area to evaporate.

Yes, but…
that depends on the shape of the tank, how the tank is oriented (standing up or laying on its side) and where the gas line is attached.
That is, a cylinder standing up vertically has very little surface area above the liquid compared to if the cylinder is laying horizontal.

 

[HAR]

Good thread.
Much has already been discussed and thought out.
Where you live and your power consumption will probably determine both the size and fuel that you choose.
Living in rural Vermont, natural gas is not an option, and propane, while available, is not something that I could bury at my location to prevent cold Vermont winter issues.
In the past week or so, we have had two power issues. The first was the result of a very heavy, wet snow storm, which caused outages due to branches/limbs/trees succumbing to the heavy weight. Our outage was very small and short lived, and I used my 2KW inverter generator to provide some lights for just over 4 hours in the evening. However, 3 days later, we went from 42F down to 8F in just over 12 hours, creating strong, gale force winds, 50-60MPH locally, which pummeled the area, again taking branches/limbs/trees down. My power went out at 3:42AM and I reported the outage. Luckily for the power company, there were already out of state crews here from the previous storm. It was nearly 2 hours later before the power company reported that it would be 12-24 hours before power might be restored. Due to the continued high winds and low temperatures, I elected to hook up my PTO generator, via double throw switch, to my home. That way I would have power for the furnace and fridge, and whatever lights that I chose. During outages, I elect not to use high draw appliances like dryer or electric range. I have a removeable portable 2 burner stove from my camper that I can run off propane for stove top cooking. As the day wore on, the power company reported over 58,000 homes without power. Huge trees all over the county were either snapped or uprooted. Radio and TV tried to keep everyone informed. We were constantly calling and checking on neighbors and the elderly in our area, giving them the option of using our house as refuge. Originally we were finally given an estimate of 6:45PM for power restoration to our area, but due to continued high winds and temps dropping below 0F, the power company sent most crews home and extended our restore time to 6:30PM the following day. Needless to say, I continued to run the generator. I keep my home thermostat at 68F, which normally is comfortable, but with the winds howling, the furnace was cycling on and off. Running the generator on an 'as needed' basis would have been insane. Each and every winter, in the event of a power outage, I fill all my available 'diesel' cans with winter grade fuel. I have about 35 gallons of storage. My power was restored at 5:45PM Christmas Eve. I burned approximately 15 gallons of off road diesel over the course of 38 hours. I was much more lucky than many. There were still over 1200 homes without power on Monday morning. I had even loaned out my 2KW inverter generator and two extension cords to an elderly neighbor who had no power, but luckily had a wood stove. During this outage, my tractor finally broke the 1000 hour mark. While some on this forum might question the sanity of running a generator 24/7, living through a storm like this one might convince you.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

4 hour power outage last night. Slept through it. The wood stove was stoked at bedtime, so the house didn't even get cold.

I'm an eccentric old codger who doesn't like noisy generators, so of course I have several.

One of my favorites is a 1957 4kw that lives in the pump house. Electric start, 10 hp. old Briggs and Stratton flat head that hadn't had enough hours on it to burn all the paint off the muffler. Paid $50 for it. It's far enough from the house that you can't hear it run.

There's the 5000/4400 rated Harbor Freight closeout that I bought in 1997 for $275. It didn't even ship with a muffler, just a spark arrestor on the 8 hp. pull start B&S I/C. It was so loud it would give you a headache at 100', so I replaced the spark arrestor with a muffler. Everything about it screams cheap, but it ran through a 5 day outage and also supplied power to build a shed off one side of my barn. Stored dry with bagged exhaust to keep the bugs out. I haven't started it in years.

The main house genset is a 10,000/7500 electric start propane Home Depot special. If you believe those numbers I have a bridge to sell you, but all I have to do is blow the cobwebs out every fall and hit start. It feeds a transfer switch.

Then there's my favorite. It's a 1200/1000 2-cycle camp generator that is ultra muffled and runs 4.5 hours on a gallon of gas. I run it through a 1950s darkroom line stabilizer to choke the harmonic distortion, and it runs the entertainment system, computer, router, and refrigerator. I bought it from Coastal Farm for $149 years ago. It has served through numerous off-road hunting camps, every power outage in 15 years, and occasionally runs small power tools for tree pruning, stump drilling, etc. You can pick it up with one hand and it even has a handle. Ultra muffled, you can have a normal conversation standing right next to it.

The real backup is the wood stove, which provides both heat and a cooking surface. Low head gravity water for cooking and toilet. Oil lamps, including two Aladdins and six wall hung lamps where they won't get knocked over. Antique reflector barber shop oil lamp that makes a good reading light. A guitar for entertainment. 19th century tech that works fine with no external inputs. Civilization did not begin with Edison and Tesla.

We've been here 28 years, and our longest outage was 5 days. My wife encourages my eccentricities. The comfort level of our house doesn't change when the power goes out. We fire up a generator for hot water and showers, but in extremity could boil a laundry tub of water on the wood stove and temper it with cold water for a bath. Oh, and a collection of board games. A deck of cards and a Scrabble board will fill a lot of silent hours.

 

[check]

Had a 2-day power outage over Christmas. Propane 17 kw Kohler genny with auto transfer switch kept the whole house powered. No problem cooking the turkey in the oven, plus using the burners to boil the spuds and the like.
Very quiet generator, and starts up instantly when the power goes out.

Wouldn’t be without an automatic transfer switch. Don’t have to lift a finger, and it goes on automatically as soon as the power goes out, and then of course switches back and shuts off the generator when the power comes on again.

 

[bdhsfz6]

Had a 2-day power outage over Christmas. Propane 17 kw Kohler genny with auto transfer switch kept the whole house powered. No problem cooking the turkey in the oven, plus using the burners to boil the spuds and the like.
Very quiet generator, and starts up instantly when the power goes out.

Wouldn’t be without an automatic transfer switch. Don’t have to lift a finger, and it goes on automatically as soon as the power goes out, and then of course switches back and shuts off the generator when the power comes on again.

Automatic transfer switches are indeed handy but, depending on your house wiring, can be expensive to install correctly by a licensed electrician.

When I first priced whole house generator systems, the transfer switch installation would have cost more than the generator. Our outages are less frequent now so I don't mind throwing the switch myself.

 

[shooterdon]

The reliability of power will only get worse. Plan accordingly.

I used to run my place with a 5000 W unit, and I have a well pump. You must load manage to use that small a unit, but you will survive comfortably unless you have electric heat.

Health issues and age prompted us to invest in a 13kW whole house unit powered with propane. IIRC it cost $6500 three years ago. It was installed professionally.

My propane supplier charges $54/yr to rent a 500 gal tank and I opted for that instead of buying another tank. But I have both tanks tied together so we can go a long time if need be. He gives me a blended price for owner owned and rented propane.

How "comfortable" you wish to live, how much effort you want to put into hooking stuff up, how good you will be at managing load, and how prepared you are to manage fuel all factor into how much you are willing to invest. No "perfect" answer or the same answer for everyone.

One last thing. Will your wife or SO be able to deal with the system you decide on? What if you are injured or not home?

 

[newbury]

Lot's of timely info here. Few questions though.
I'm needing a generator or two also. Based on online calculators I figure 10KW would be the max I need, but often (for months) less than half that.
We run a lot of computer equipment and I've a whole house surge protector. I've fried an expensive dishwasher circuit board before I got the wh surge protector.

so Q1 - Would the surge protector work with a generator?
I was actually thinking of buying EVENTUALLY two ~7KW inverter generators. These would be more movable and several times my power has been on but my MIL's was out, thus I could loan a generator easily.

Q2 - Does anyone here run generators with a tri-fuel kit?
My generator of choice (Honda) only offers gasoline, but I've got LPG and natural gas is coming to my road.

 

[stumblinhorse]

I think I am going to try to do propane. I am hoping that a 10k starting generator wouldn’t freeze up a smaller tank. I am thinking of trying to have the tank in the garage with the hose out a window to the generator. My plug to the house is inside the garage also, so I have to have a window cracked open with a piece of insulation blocking weather anyway. My garage is heated to about 45*f so that will help since it is much colder outside. If that doesn’t work I will get a blanket for the tank. And worse case I will syphon gas out of my only gas vehicle as a last resort.

 

[ponytug]

Lot's of timely info here. Few questions though.
I'm needing a generator or two also. Based on online calculators I figure 10KW would be the max I need, but often (for months) less than half that.
We run a lot of computer equipment and I've a whole house surge protector. I've fried an expensive dishwasher circuit board before I got the wh surge protector.

so Q1 - Would the surge protector work with a generator?
I was actually thinking of buying EVENTUALLY two ~7KW inverter generators. These would be more movable and several times my power has been on but my MIL's was out, thus I could loan a generator easily.

Q2 - Does anyone here run generators with a tri-fuel kit?
My generator of choice (Honda) only offers gasoline, but I've got LPG and natural gas is coming to my road.

If you think that you mostly won't need the full 10kW, I would consider an inverter generator that can throttle back, for energy efficiency and sound reduction, but the largest I know of is an 8k from Northern Tool. I like your idea of perhaps two 7kW units.

To your questions;
1) Yes, a surge protector will do a little, but they are really designed to do just that, suppress high voltage surges. The inverter generators should produce very clean power. If you want to add something to clean up the power quality, I would consider an autotransformer and some EMI chokes, available in 120/240 versions to 20A each. Unfortunately, both poor generator design and marginal/failing generator electronics can lead to bad power quality. I tend to run my generators with a frequency meter and a volt meter display hooked up just to keep an eye on things.

2) Sorry, I can't help you on this one. I run diesel and gasoline generators. If I were doing it again, I would seriously consider one of those MEP-802A generators mentioned earlier. (When I was having issues with my cheap diesel, I nearly did.) Like @Larry Caldwell, I have an ancient 4kW Coleman gasoline generator that just runs, and runs, and a newer 6.5kW Yanmar knockoff cheap Chinese diesel, for which I now have lots of spare parts on hand, and now that I have a few things sorted out, it runs well.

All the best,

Peter

 

[IXLR8]

I have a 7Kw peak, 5.5kw running Honda inverter generator. We have a propane cooktop, electric oven, propane furnace or heat pump for heat and a 220v well pump. If we have a power outage in the winter, I set the T-stat to only run the propane furnace and I turn the breaker for the oven off and the generator handles everything else okay. Generator exhaust is typically pointed at my neighbors house and he says he never hears it. A quiet generator was a MUST have on my list. The generator is also push button start with fuel injection so wife has no issues getting it started if I am not available.

 

[Hoss710]

inverter technology is incredible. I use to have a few yanmar powered suitcase mep503 generators. they were very quiet and extremely fuel efficient. now in 2011 hurricane Irene hit us bad. 21 days with no power. I had a military 15kw gen that kept the whole house running including 2 ac units. it was a noisy cuss. but ran none stop and kept the house comfortably. and cooking was no issue. I since had bought a mep004a ( 20kw) as my main house generator. another loud 1 . but easy on fuel. I have a mep 806a that's a quiet unit and 60kw for my shop. it has a john deere 6 cylinder 6 liter turbocharged engine ( same as my jd710 c loader backhoe) it's to power my shop in a emergency.

 

[grsthegreat]

My well guy loves small generators. After long outages he makes a small fortune replacing failed well pumps.

 

[stumblinhorse]

I am going to think about DUROMAX 9,000-Watt/7,600-Watt Dual Fuel Remote Start Inverter Generator with Portable Digital Parallel 50-State XP9000iH - The Home Depot

to be able to use propane without freezing the regulator? Thoughts?

 

[Larry Caldwell]

If you think that you mostly won't need the full 10kW, I would consider an inverter generator that can throttle back, for energy efficiency and sound reduction, but the largest I know of is an 8k from Northern Tool. I like your idea of perhaps two 7kW units.

To your questions;
1) Yes, a surge protector will do a little, but they are really designed to do just that, suppress high voltage surges. The inverter generators should produce very clean power. If you want to add something to clean up the power quality, I would consider an autotransformer and some EMI chokes, available in 120/240 versions to 20A each. Unfortunately, both poor generator design and marginal/failing generator electronics can lead to bad power quality. I tend to run my generators with a frequency meter and a volt meter display hooked up just to keep an eye on things.

2) Sorry, I can't help you on this one. I run diesel and gasoline generators. If I were doing it again, I would seriously consider one of those MEP-802A generators mentioned earlier. (When I was having issues with my cheap diesel, I nearly did.) Like @Larry Caldwell, I have an ancient 4kW Coleman gasoline generator that just runs, and runs, and a newer 6.5kW Yanmar knockoff cheap Chinese diesel, for which I now have lots of spare parts on hand, and now that I have a few things sorted out, it runs well.

All the best,

Peter

It's possible to find used voltage stabilizers on the market. They were common before the days of computer electronics. A friend with a recording studio installed one in 1972, after the dinnertime voltage drop ruined a recording session when the top of the line TEAC recorder slowed down. Mine came from a photo lab that had the same problem with exposure times being thrown off by power company voltage variations. It's a surprisingly simple thing, just a big autotransformer and a couple big capacitors.

I put an oscilloscope on it, and it does a great job of filtering spikes. I didn't check it for EMI or RFI, but spikes happen all the time on a generator circuit, every time you flip a switch open. When wondering if a generator will start a heat pump, don't forget to wonder what happens when it shuts off.

I bought the line voltage stabilizer at a university surplus auction in the days when a UPS would cost north of four bills and money was worth a lot more. Jeez, I just realized I have had a home computer for 35 years...old tech.

 

[TheMan419]

While some on this forum might question the sanity of running a generator 24/7, living through a storm like this one might convince you.

I am in northern Indiana. We had the wind and the -35F windchill. Thankfully we dodged the snow. About 15 miles north of us got pounded. So we did not have the widespread power outage you had. If we did the gen would have been running 24/7 because the pump on the boiler was running darn near full time. Thankfully it would kick off for like 15 min out of an hour, but not enough to allow generator shut down and restart regularly.

When winter comes I load up on gasoline and stabil it. I keep enough on hand to run full bore for 30 hours or so. I can get out and get more gas during that time. Even if there is a blizzard. Although we are not prone to the type the got in Buffalo thank God.

 

[ponytug]

It's possible to find used voltage stabilizers on the market. They were common before the days of computer electronics. A friend with a recording studio installed one in 1972, after the dinnertime voltage drop ruined a recording session when the top of the line TEAC recorder slowed down. Mine came from a photo lab that had the same problem with exposure times being thrown off by power company voltage variations. It's a surprisingly simple thing, just a big autotransformer and a couple big capacitors.

I put an oscilloscope on it, and it does a great job of filtering spikes. I didn't check it for EMI or RFI, but spikes happen all the time on a generator circuit, every time you flip a switch open. When wondering if a generator will start a heat pump, don't forget to wonder what happens when it shuts off.

I bought the line voltage stabilizer at a university surplus auction in the days when a UPS would cost north of four bills and money was worth a lot more. Jeez, I just realized I have had a home computer for 35 years...old tech.

I used a ferroresonant voltage stabilizer for many years on a piece of touchy electronics, and it did a great job of removing pretty much all of the noise on the line. It was a beast. I remember it as weighing over 150lbs. It did a great job though. The local utility did something every morning at 6:00am that caused a one cycle or so voltage drop.

Welcome to the olde tyme computer owners club!

Great point about the shutoff effects of large motors which can be worse than the start up effects.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Larry Caldwell]

I am in northern Indiana. We had the wind and the -35F windchill. Thankfully we dodged the snow. About 15 miles north of us got pounded. So we did not have the widespread power outage you had. If we did the gen would have been running 24/7 because the pump on the boiler was running darn near full time. Thankfully it would kick off for like 15 min out of an hour, but not enough to allow generator shut down and restart regularly.

When winter comes I load up on gasoline and stabil it. I keep enough on hand to run full bore for 30 hours or so. I can get out and get more gas during that time. Even if there is a blizzard. Although we are not prone to the type the got in Buffalo thank God.

A generator certainly needs to be integrated with your home tech. Some people can't even flush a toilet if they don't have electricity. Over time, you can integrate your home infrastructure more flexibly. There was wood heat when we bought the place, so extra outlay was not required, but we spent quite a bit on upgraded insulation, windows, and doors. We've gone from running the wood stove wide open in cold weather, to a small fire well banked. We're still burning all the limbs that came down in last year's Snowmageddon.

Our well gets very low flow in the summer, so I installed a 2500 gallon cistern to be able to take a long shower without running the well dry. While I was at it I placed it high enough to gravity feed the house. Flush away, the toilet refills as if by magic!

The router needs a 12v. power supply, so I put a battery maintainer on a 12v. deep cycle, soldered some leads on a cheap BangGood step-up, step-down regulated power supply module, and my tablets/cell phones connect to the internet with no generator running. I can charge them off the same battery, which lasts for days. If the battery drops below 12v., the router still sees 12v. That's handy because there is no broadcast TV available here, and the strongest radio signal comes from a NOAA station on top of a local mountain.

An all-electric home is pretty common any more. I have neighbors who have one. If your house dies when the power goes out, or you live in the South where it is not inhabitable without air conditioning, a whole house genset with plenty of fuel is probably the wisest course of action. A more broad based physical plant can get by on less. When my mom was still living I set up a small genset just to run her oil furnace. It was electric start, but I had to supply her with 2 gallon gas cans because she was too frail to lift a 5 gallon can.

We've seen some integration efforts in this thread, like the battery backup for pellet stove. It's a wonder to me that nobody markets a Stirling powered electricity-free pellet stove. A quick check did find one pellet boiler that has an optional Stirling engine generator.

Many people have pointed out that you have to integrate the system with the user. I don't know if I will still be heating with wood 10 years from now, when I'm 85. Without my muscles, my wife would have trouble even now. Horsing a big chunk of wood into the firebox is a two hander for me, impossible for her, so I keep a good supply of splits on hand. The generator is electric start because there is no way she could handle pull start. Maybe this year I'll buy firewood, or maybe I'll split my own again, but I can see the day coming that I won't be able to handle it myself. I'm getting an aortic valve replacement this year, so maybe I'll feel perkier after that, but design choices I made when I was 65 may not be appropriate when I'm 85.

 

[i7win7]

We run a lot of computer equipment and I've a whole house surge protector. I've fried an expensive dishwasher circuit board before I got the wh surge protector.

Q2 - Does anyone here run generators with a tri-fuel kit?

OLD SCHOOL:
I have several 1500VA APC UPS units. All are 10 yrs old or more. All of them are modified sine wave, use sealed lead acid batteries. AC motors want pure AC sine waves. Batteries need replaced 3-4 years. UPS only runs about 15 minutes, just long enough to properly shut down computer eqipment. Don't know the switch over time spec (AC to DC) to be called a UPS

NEW TECH:
Solar generators: Cost more than UPS, a little longer switch over time (call it EPS emergency power supply), have bigger batteries, can be used indoors, can work like power on demand (fridge, lift chair, ect), some are designed to be mobile others are fixed installs. Really need gas gen (lower $$) over solar panels (high $$) to recharge batteries. Not a tax expert, heard you need at least 1 solar panel to claim tax deductions. Plan to replace all UPS units with solar gens over time.

DUEL FUEL:
I have chosen to use Ecoflow equipment. The DELTA 2 has a 1Kw battery, can output 1800w, testing fridge with a kill-a-watt meter - should run fridge an entire day. The dual fuel gas gen outputs 1600w LP/ 1800w gas. Will recharge the delta in an hour. Gas gen is AC/DC unit faster recharging on DC side. Gas gen can be pull started, push button electric start, phone app start, solar gen can start it.

Solar panels:
Don't be in a rush to buy them. Most power generation is from 10an to 2pm. Decide what areas of roof/property could support a solar array. Buy the highest wattage possible 400w+. Only reason for solar panels - can't make fuel, can make DC power. Still need a gas gen
to run any 240v wells, welders, electric driers and for cloudy/overcast days.