Global Warming News

[FallbrookFarmer]

I don't see VA coverage as "socialized", but then I don't see medicare, which I pre-pay for, as "socialized" either. My father, older brother and son all served in the military. They earned their VA coverage. I figure by being good and productive citizens of this country we all earn some benefits. I'm willing to pay what they cost, we're just discussing who I pay. Right now I pay an outfit called Coventry to pay my medical expenses. They get to decide what I pay and what I get. They do not provide that service for my benefit; they provide that service to make money, which I do not object to. In general, I don't object to paying for services I need, or might need. I'm not fond of over paying for such things. The health insurance industry is one of the most profitable parts of this miserable economy. I figure I am over paying. Competition might bring down costs, but my employer does a pretty fair job of shopping for deals now, and my costs keep going up. I worry that competition among the health insurers might be like the competition among the gas companies. There are several different gas companies represented in this town. The cost of a gallon of regular is the same, to the penny, at most of them....I think I can get $0.05 off if I buy both groceries and gas at HyVee! And, no, I am not suggesting that the oil companies should be nationalized. I like the general idea of a free market economy. We don't have one, but it is one of those feel good ideas. I see health care as a special kind of commodity, which should be and is regulated to a large extent already. Apparently you see regulation by price as the best way to apportion all "scarce resources". Meet me in a sealed room, with a limited oxygen supply, and bring your wallet.

Chuck

The gist of your post if I read it correctly is, You feel that you pay too much for things. Fair enough.
To use your example of gasoline prices, I'm sure that gasoline was considerably higher in price a year ago where you live. Why did the price come down? Did "Big Oil" get a case of "Gee I feel so guilty, charging so much"? Were they scared into lowering their prices, because it was the second coming of "The One"?Perhaps the executives of the "Big Oil" companies just want to be popular.
I wouldn't think so.
What happened was that the price of gasoline(as determined by the free market) became too high.
Hence the price came down.
Now let me ask you a question, If something becomes "free" or "subsidized" do people tend to use more or less of that commodity?
Most reasonable people would say, more.
Now going to health care. If health care becomes "free" or "subsidized", will people use more or less of it?
Take a guess as to what will happen to the price.
Now if the price is controlled by the government, where are they going to make up the shortfall.
Hmmmmm?

 

[Loren49]

FallbrockFarmer-some information now that you used Cuba as an example:

Cuba
Cuba has been a popular medical tourism destination for more than 40 years. Thousands of patients travel to Cuba, particularly from Latin America and Europe, attracted by the "fine reputation of Cuban doctors, the low prices and nearby beaches on which to recuperate."[53] In 2006, Cuba attracted nearly 20,000 health tourists.[54]
Medical treatments included joint replacement, cancer treatment, eye surgery, cosmetic surgery and addictions rehabilitation. Costs are about 60 to 80 percent less than US costs.
Cuba has hospitals for Cuban residents and others that focus on serving foreigners and diplomats. In the 2007 American documentary film, Sicko, which criticizes the US healthcare system, producer Michael Moore leads a group of uninsured American patients to Cuba to obtain more affordable medical treatment. Sicko has greatly increased foreigners' interest in Cuban healthcare. A recent Miami Herald story focused on the high quality of health care that Canadian and American medical tourism patients receive in Cuba.[55]
The Cuban government has developed Cuban medical tourism to generate income for the country. Residents of Canada, the UK and most other countries can travel to Cuba without any difficulty a tourist visa is generally required. For Americans, however, because of the US trade policy towards Cuba, travelers must either obtain US government approval, or, more frequently, travel to Cuba from Canada, Mexico, the Bahamas, Jamaica or the Dominican Republic. Cuban immigration authorities do not stamp the passports of US visitors so that Americans can keep their travels a private matter.
To date no Cuban facility has achieved JCI Accreditation.[51]


According to the UN, the life expectancy in Cuba is 78.3 years (76.2 for males and 80.4 for females). This ranks Cuba 37th in the world and 3rd in the Americas, behind only Canada and Chile, and just ahead of the United States. Infant mortality in Cuba declined from 32 (infant deaths per 1,000 live births) in 1957, to 10 in 1990?5 [124]. Infant mortality in 2000?005 was 6.1 per 1,000 live births (compared to 6.8 in the USA).

Cuba
Main article: Health care in Cuba
Health care in Cuba consists of a government-coordinated system that guarantees universal coverage and consumes a lower proportion of the nation's GDP (7.3%) than some highly privatised systems (e.g. USA: 16%) (OECD 2008). The system does charge fees in treating elective treatment for patients from abroad, but tourists who fall ill are treated free in Cuban hospitals. Cuba attracts patients mostly from Latin America and Europe by offering care of comparable quality to a developed nation but at much lower prices. Cuba's own health indicators are the best in Latin America and surpass those of the US in some respects (infant mortality rates, underweight babies, HIV infection, immunisation rates, doctor per population rates). (UNDP 2006: Tables 6,7,9,10) In 2005, Cuba spent 7.6% of GDP on health care, or US$310 per capita. Of that, approximately 91% was government expenditure.[18]

Note $310 per capita in Cuba vs $6350 in US for same year. Talk about playing softball.

Loren

 

[Loren49]

Just for balance on medical tourism:

United States
Although much attention has been given to the growing trend of uninsured Americans traveling to foreign countries, a report from 2008 found that a plurality of an estimated 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care.[61] The availability of advanced medical technology and sophisticated training of physicians are cited as driving motivators for growth in foreigners traveling to the U.S. for medical care. Also, it has been noted that the decline in value of the U.S. dollar is offering additional incentive for foreign travel to the U.S. However, costs differences between the US and many locations in Asia far outweigh any currency fluctuations.
Several major medical centers and teaching hospitals offer international patient centers that cater to patients from foreign countries who seek medical treatment in the U.S.[62] Many of these organizations offer service coordinators to assist international patients with arrangements for medical care, accommodations, finances and transportation including air ambulance services.
It should be noted that many locations in the US that offer medical care comparable in price to foreign medical facilities are not Joint Commission Accredited.

I predict many more under or uninsured US citizens would go to Cuba for some treatment if travel there was allowed.

Loren

 

[Jim2]

Now going to health care. If health care becomes "free" or "subsidized", will people use more or less of it?

I think healthy people use less healthcare. . . . Would you rather change your oil at regular intervals or replace your engine?

Jim

 

[Pilot]

Ah, there is one more wrinkle with using infant mortality as a measure of health care effectiveness: Not all countries use the same standard. Cuba and many other countries don't count in their infant mortality figures until the baby lives for a certain number of days. We count them if they die when born. Makes a big difference.

 

[Loren49]

Pilot-any references on that? I'd like to read more about it.

Loren

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

I think healthy people use less healthcare. . . . Would you rather change your oil at regular intervals or replace your engine?

Jim

Well if the government was paying for the Marfax in my crankcase, I'd be changing it twice a week.
But, if the government was offering to replace my engine, what impetus would there be for me to change my oil anyway. See obesity rates for welfare receipients for a comparison.

 

[keegs]

You could easily make the argument that in a for profit system, providers have a business incentive to provide services.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

FallbrockFarmer-some information now that you used Cuba as an example:

Cuba
Cuba has been a popular medical tourism destination for more than 40 years. Thousands of patients travel to Cuba, particularly from Latin America and Europe, attracted by the "fine reputation of Cuban doctors, the low prices and nearby beaches on which to recuperate."[53] In 2006, Cuba attracted nearly 20,000 health tourists.[54]
Medical treatments included joint replacement, cancer treatment, eye surgery, cosmetic surgery and addictions rehabilitation. Costs are about 60 to 80 percent less than US costs.
Cuba has hospitals for Cuban residents and others that focus on serving foreigners and diplomats. In the 2007 American documentary film, Sicko, which criticizes the US healthcare system, producer Michael Moore leads a group of uninsured American patients to Cuba to obtain more affordable medical treatment. Sicko has greatly increased foreigners' interest in Cuban healthcare. A recent Miami Herald story focused on the high quality of health care that Canadian and American medical tourism patients receive in Cuba.[55]
The Cuban government has developed Cuban medical tourism to generate income for the country. Residents of Canada, the UK and most other countries can travel to Cuba without any difficulty a tourist visa is generally required. For Americans, however, because of the US trade policy towards Cuba, travelers must either obtain US government approval, or, more frequently, travel to Cuba from Canada, Mexico, the Bahamas, Jamaica or the Dominican Republic. Cuban immigration authorities do not stamp the passports of US visitors so that Americans can keep their travels a private matter.
To date no Cuban facility has achieved JCI Accreditation.[51]


According to the UN, the life expectancy in Cuba is 78.3 years (76.2 for males and 80.4 for females). This ranks Cuba 37th in the world and 3rd in the Americas, behind only Canada and Chile, and just ahead of the United States. Infant mortality in Cuba declined from 32 (infant deaths per 1,000 live births) in 1957, to 10 in 1990?5 [124]. Infant mortality in 2000?005 was 6.1 per 1,000 live births (compared to 6.8 in the USA).

Cuba
Main article: Health care in Cuba
Health care in Cuba consists of a government-coordinated system that guarantees universal coverage and consumes a lower proportion of the nation's GDP (7.3%) than some highly privatised systems (e.g. USA: 16%) (OECD 2008). The system does charge fees in treating elective treatment for patients from abroad, but tourists who fall ill are treated free in Cuban hospitals. Cuba attracts patients mostly from Latin America and Europe by offering care of comparable quality to a developed nation but at much lower prices. Cuba's own health indicators are the best in Latin America and surpass those of the US in some respects (infant mortality rates, underweight babies, HIV infection, immunisation rates, doctor per population rates). (UNDP 2006: Tables 6,7,9,10) In 2005, Cuba spent 7.6% of GDP on health care, or US$310 per capita. Of that, approximately 91% was government expenditure.[18]

Note $310 per capita in Cuba vs $6350 in US for same year. Talk about playing softball.

Loren

Loren,
You've got me.
Only $310 vs. 6350.
Why its a absolute "health care paradise". One of the reasons that there is "popular medical tourism" that attracts thousands of foreigners, is that the money spent on the "quality" health care is NOT going to the average Cuban. When the average Cuban is rationed as to the amount of foodstuffs that they are allowed, are you ACTUALLY going to try and make a comparison between them and us?
You will note that I am not going to go into the fact that in Cuba there are REAL political prisoners, as opposed to some Hollywood wackjob's idea of persecution, here.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

You could easily make the argument that in a for profit system, providers have a business incentive to provide services.

I have, and will continue to do so/wink.gif

 

[Pilot]

Loren49, references:

My info was printed several years ago, so I have long forgotten the source, but here is what Wiki says at Infant mortality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The exclusion of any high-risk infants from the denominator or numerator in reported IMRs can be problematic for comparisons. Many countries, including the United States, Sweden or Germany, count an infant exhibiting any sign of life as alive, no matter the month of gestation or the size, but according to United States Centers for Disease Control researchers,[6] some other countries differ in these practices. All of the countries named adopted the WHO definitions in the late 1980s or early 1990s,[7] which are used throughout the European Union.[8] However, in 2009, the US CDC issued a report which stated that the American rates of infant mortality were affected by the United States' high rates of premature babies compared to European countries and which outlines the differences in reporting requirements between the United States and Europe, noting that France, the Czech Republic, Ireland, the Netherlands, and Poland do not report all live births of babies under 500 g and/or 22 weeks of gestation.[6][9][10]"

It goes on with more of a discussion.

 

[Chuck52]

The gist of your post if I read it correctly is, You feel that you pay too much for things. Fair enough.
To use your example of gasoline prices, I'm sure that gasoline was considerably higher in price a year ago where you live. Why did the price come down? Did "Big Oil" get a case of "Gee I feel so guilty, charging so much"? Were they scared into lowering their prices, because it was the second coming of "The One"?Perhaps the executives of the "Big Oil" companies just want to be popular.
I wouldn't think so.
What happened was that the price of gasoline(as determined by the free market) became too high.
Hence the price came down.
Now let me ask you a question, If something becomes "free" or "subsidized" do people tend to use more or less of that commodity?
Most reasonable people would say, more.
Now going to health care. If health care becomes "free" or "subsidized", will people use more or less of it?
Take a guess as to what will happen to the price.
Now if the price is controlled by the government, where are they going to make up the shortfall.
Hmmmmm?

I didn't say I thought I pay too much for gasoline, I was just using the price of gasoline to address the general argument that competition lowers prices. In the ideal free market environment that is usually true, but it doesn't seem to affect the price of gas these days....remember gas wars? I suppose the argument is that the price of gas at the pump reflects the market price of gas, and that there is just too little profit there to trim, so Exxon costs exactly the same as Shell, and of course the small profits reported by the major oil companies certainly support that argument.....just like the tiny profits reported by the health insurance industry supports the idea that I'm getting a real bargain for my health insurance.

So you're happy with your government supplied health care, which I agree you earned via your service, and I haven't seen you comment about the quality of Medicare, which most of us will get after paying for it, but you figure we can't trust the government to do something similar for the general population. OK. If that's your opinion there's no real need for further argument on that topic.

That bottle of Aberlour is looking at me again....reminds me of the Geico money wih eyes.

Chuck

 

[Loren49]

FallbrockFarmer-I'm not trying to compare the political systems. On healthcare the WHO ranked them 39th with US at 37th. At 1/20th of our cost per capita and 50 miles from our boarder, their system doesn't work too bad. They have, I believe, next to the highest life expectancy in Latin America. They exceed Mexico, Bahamas - the only country that does better in Costa Rica at 78 compare to Cuba's 77. By the way, Costa Rica also has publicly funded universal health care. Are you implying that Cubans get just enough foodstuffs so that they neither starve nor are obese? I can't believe that form of government is that efficient.
Going back to what started this (Cuba example) , I was talking of the developed countries and that none of them have it all free when you threw Cuba into the discussion. Then you blamed me for the comparison.
We in the US have by far a bigger portion of private insurance money in the mix and also by far the most costly and by far the most citizens not covered. This translates to lack of preventative care for millions and extra cost in the long run. Do you have any idea how many good hardworking Americans have become ill at an inconvenient time (and had insurance at the time), then lost their job, then insurance, then everything they had worked for. Maybe it only matters if it happens to a friend or a relative.

Pilot - thanks for the reference. Not sure where Cuba stands but there probably is some issue. I doubt if life expectancy has the same issue.

Loren

 

[Jim2]

Well if the government was paying for the Marfax in my crankcase, I'd be changing it twice a week.
But, if the government was offering to replace my engine, what impetus would there be for me to change my oil anyway. See obesity rates for welfare receipients for a comparison.

Maybe quality of life?

If you're afraid to do something good because somebody might take advantage of you, how are you any different than those "welfare queens"? Two sides of the same coin, I would say. Wouldn't it be kind of spiteful to get fat, sick, unhealthy because somebody else would take care of you anyway? Yes, there probably are people like that. But, you gonna live your life based on what the lowest common denominator does? I dont'/wouldn't.

And don't fool yourself--we may not be paying for a new engine (yet!), but we are paying for towing (emergency room visits). . . .

Jim

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

FallbrockFarmer-I'm not trying to compare the political systems. On healthcare the WHO ranked them 39th with US at 37th. At 1/20th of our cost per capita and 50 miles from our boarder, their system doesn't work too bad. They have, I believe, next to the highest life expectancy in Latin America. They exceed Mexico, Bahamas - the only country that does better in Costa Rica at 78 compare to Cuba's 77. By the way, Costa Rica also has publicly funded universal health care. Are you implying that Cubans get just enough foodstuffs so that they neither starve nor are obese? I can't believe that form of government is that efficient.
Going back to what started this (Cuba example) , I was talking of the developed countries and that none of them have it all free when you threw Cuba into the discussion. Then you blamed me for the comparison.
We in the US have by far a bigger portion of private insurance money in the mix and also by far the most costly and by far the most citizens not covered. This translates to lack of preventative care for millions and extra cost in the long run. Do you have any idea how many good hardworking Americans have become ill at an inconvenient time (and had insurance at the time), then lost their job, then insurance, then everything they had worked for. Maybe it only matters if it happens to a friend or a relative.

Pilot - thanks for the reference. Not sure where Cuba stands but there probably is some issue. I doubt if life expectancy has the same issue.

Loren

I,ve got to tip my hat to you again,
No, I wasn't comparing political systems either(Hopefully, we can agree that our Democracy is a better system, than a Marxist Dictatorship) What I was comparing is just well, life.I did get a good laugh at the WHO list of countries, I know that Morocco is going to be on my list of places when I need advanced health care.
But then you make passing reference to the efficiency of their food delivery system("Just enough foodstuffs so that they neither starve or are obese") I was hoping that it was in jest, but when I look at the gist of your argument, the quality of health care in our country vs Cuba's, I am not reassured.
Having known a number of people who were in the Venceremos brigades who went to Cuba in the 60-70s(Yes I have a much further Left background then you do) I know how easy it is to dupe people who
"only want to do something good for the people"
If you look at the recent history of the world you will see that virtually all of the worst dictators/killers were all Socialist of some stripe,******(Natl Soc) Stalin(Comm.)
Pol Pot(Soc.)Castro(Comm) and then to relate it back to what you said about the Cuban food system, I think that you don't have to go to far south down the road to see the same thing happening(Perhaps a bit of exaggeration, but is not NYC banning certain foods, just one step in a long journey to
the state controlling every aspect of our lives.
Perhaps too much starch in my drawers today, but Im beginning to worry, when one actually thinks there is ANY
field of endeavor that Cuba is even on the same planet with the US.
(Okay one concession, baseball players)

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

I didn't say I thought I pay too much for gasoline, I was just using the price of gasoline to address the general argument that competition lowers prices. In the ideal free market environment that is usually true, but it doesn't seem to affect the price of gas these days....remember gas wars? I suppose the argument is that the price of gas at the pump reflects the market price of gas, and that there is just too little profit there to trim, so Exxon costs exactly the same as Shell, and of course the small profits reported by the major oil companies certainly support that argument.....just like the tiny profits reported by the health insurance industry supports the idea that I'm getting a real bargain for my health insurance.

So you're happy with your government supplied health care, which I agree you earned via your service, which most of us will get after paying for it, but you figure we can't trust the government to do something similar for the general population. OK. If that's your opinion there's no real need for further argument on that topic.

That bottle of Aberlour is looking at me again....reminds me of the Geico money wih eyes.

Chuck

"and I haven't seen you comment about the quality of Medicare,"
You actually want me to talk more! Boy are you a glutton for punishment!
My argument is that the free market works,
If you introduce competition in to any system you will get a cheaper better product.
You probably are NOT getting the most bang for your health care buck. Who is preventing that?
Is there true competition in the health care industry, or is it one of the most regulated industries in the country, with Mandate upon Mandate is imposed by the government?
Don't know what line of work your in, but lets says you are a farmer, The G comes in a says that you have to wash your vegetables 7 times before you take them to market, and that you have to use a new herbicide that they feel is "safer" than the one you now use, only its twice as expensive.
Now when you take your produce to market, are you going to be charging more or less than vegetables coming from someplace that doesn't have the onerous regs?
If your customers come to you and say I would like to buy your veggies, but the ones across the road are cheaper, and you say I can't because I am carrying all these other costs(mandates).
Try to buy insurance across state lines, Can't do it ,can
you.
Well is that the fault of the insurance companies or the government?

 

[Chuck52]

FF,

It's unlikely we'll agree on either (or is it any?) of the topics this thresd has hit on, but you might agee with me that it is likely that both government and insurance companies have managed to make it difficult to shop for the best rates.

So, anyway, since this thread seems to be a permanent feature now, I think I'll just head over to the booze thread. Even if we disagee on the relative merits of different adult beverages, I'd get the first round.

Chuck

 

[dave1949]

One thing to keep in mind when discussing Cuba is that until about 15 years ago they received considerable support from the USSR which propped up their economy artificially. Even though the USSR couldn't afford it, it was a great propaganda device.

On the other hand, the US has done all it could to cripple the Cuban economy for decades. That would need to be taken into account also.

All in all, the economy of Cuba is probably so manipulated for so long that it may be difficult to draw valid conclusions.

The Canadians have been enjoying wonderful vacations in Cuba for some time now. Germans also. One of my German friends bowling team took a trip to Cuba about 14 years ago. He said it was nice enough but they drank their hotel out of beer seriously.

Do we get a fair and balanced view of Cuba here in the US? The only solid fact I have been able to discern is the Cuban community around Miami hates Castro. From pics, it looks like the place that time forgot since about 1950. How many prisons are there? How many prisoners? Anybody have in-depth or first hand knowledge of Cuba and would like to share?
Dave.

 

[Loren49]

FallbrockFarmer - my concern is that you introduced Cuba. I only showed evidence of a pretty good healthcare system considering how poor they are after you brought it up. How could you have done that in light of your last post? You rant and label any of the despicable and ruthless dictator's as socialist's. Then you conclude that those who feel differently than you must support them. Ridiculous and absurd conclusion. (plus faulty logic) I view them as tyrant's who were power hungry and had little concern for their people. (did they have universal health care?)
I doubt you have a more unbiased outlook than the WHO nor have you done the research. They aren't rating the best place to live nor was I, they are ranking efficiency and effectiveness of the healthcare system. Maybe you should write a letter to the UN and scold them for even looking at Cuba.
What you see as far, far to the left can be viewed is far, far to the right.

Anybody got a beer,
Loren

 

[MikePA]

Mike PA - no need to argue but I feel that the "trickle down" theory only works for what happens when we feed the donkey all the good grain and the rest of us share what trickles to the ground. Your theory and my theory are debatable but I don't believe that we'll come to a consensus. I believe that facts show that the distribution of wealth in this country was significantly accelerated by the recent tax policy. Whether that is a good or bad thing is debatable.

I was not talking about 'trickle' anything nor was I talking about economic theory.

No consensus needed, afterall we aren't trying to prove man made global warming. Facts aren't debated either. Fact: Lowering tax rates increases revenue to the government.