Global Warming News

[FallbrookFarmer]

I don't see VA coverage as "socialized", but then I don't see medicare, which I pre-pay for, as "socialized" either. My father, older brother and son all served in the military. They earned their VA coverage. I figure by being good and productive citizens of this country we all earn some benefits. I'm willing to pay what they cost, we're just discussing who I pay. Right now I pay an outfit called Coventry to pay my medical expenses. They get to decide what I pay and what I get. They do not provide that service for my benefit; they provide that service to make money, which I do not object to. In general, I don't object to paying for services I need, or might need. I'm not fond of over paying for such things. The health insurance industry is one of the most profitable parts of this miserable economy. I figure I am over paying. Competition might bring down costs, but my employer does a pretty fair job of shopping for deals now, and my costs keep going up. I worry that competition among the health insurers might be like the competition among the gas companies. There are several different gas companies represented in this town. The cost of a gallon of regular is the same, to the penny, at most of them....I think I can get $0.05 off if I buy both groceries and gas at HyVee! And, no, I am not suggesting that the oil companies should be nationalized. I like the general idea of a free market economy. We don't have one, but it is one of those feel good ideas. I see health care as a special kind of commodity, which should be and is regulated to a large extent already. Apparently you see regulation by price as the best way to apportion all "scarce resources". Meet me in a sealed room, with a limited oxygen supply, and bring your wallet.

Chuck

The gist of your post if I read it correctly is, You feel that you pay too much for things. Fair enough.
To use your example of gasoline prices, I'm sure that gasoline was considerably higher in price a year ago where you live. Why did the price come down? Did "Big Oil" get a case of "Gee I feel so guilty, charging so much"? Were they scared into lowering their prices, because it was the second coming of "The One"?Perhaps the executives of the "Big Oil" companies just want to be popular.
I wouldn't think so.
What happened was that the price of gasoline(as determined by the free market) became too high.
Hence the price came down.
Now let me ask you a question, If something becomes "free" or "subsidized" do people tend to use more or less of that commodity?
Most reasonable people would say, more.
Now going to health care. If health care becomes "free" or "subsidized", will people use more or less of it?
Take a guess as to what will happen to the price.
Now if the price is controlled by the government, where are they going to make up the shortfall.
Hmmmmm?

 

[Loren49]

FallbrockFarmer-some information now that you used Cuba as an example:

Cuba
Cuba has been a popular medical tourism destination for more than 40 years. Thousands of patients travel to Cuba, particularly from Latin America and Europe, attracted by the "fine reputation of Cuban doctors, the low prices and nearby beaches on which to recuperate."[53] In 2006, Cuba attracted nearly 20,000 health tourists.[54]
Medical treatments included joint replacement, cancer treatment, eye surgery, cosmetic surgery and addictions rehabilitation. Costs are about 60 to 80 percent less than US costs.
Cuba has hospitals for Cuban residents and others that focus on serving foreigners and diplomats. In the 2007 American documentary film, Sicko, which criticizes the US healthcare system, producer Michael Moore leads a group of uninsured American patients to Cuba to obtain more affordable medical treatment. Sicko has greatly increased foreigners' interest in Cuban healthcare. A recent Miami Herald story focused on the high quality of health care that Canadian and American medical tourism patients receive in Cuba.[55]
The Cuban government has developed Cuban medical tourism to generate income for the country. Residents of Canada, the UK and most other countries can travel to Cuba without any difficulty a tourist visa is generally required. For Americans, however, because of the US trade policy towards Cuba, travelers must either obtain US government approval, or, more frequently, travel to Cuba from Canada, Mexico, the Bahamas, Jamaica or the Dominican Republic. Cuban immigration authorities do not stamp the passports of US visitors so that Americans can keep their travels a private matter.
To date no Cuban facility has achieved JCI Accreditation.[51]


According to the UN, the life expectancy in Cuba is 78.3 years (76.2 for males and 80.4 for females). This ranks Cuba 37th in the world and 3rd in the Americas, behind only Canada and Chile, and just ahead of the United States. Infant mortality in Cuba declined from 32 (infant deaths per 1,000 live births) in 1957, to 10 in 1990?5 [124]. Infant mortality in 2000?005 was 6.1 per 1,000 live births (compared to 6.8 in the USA).

Cuba
Main article: Health care in Cuba
Health care in Cuba consists of a government-coordinated system that guarantees universal coverage and consumes a lower proportion of the nation's GDP (7.3%) than some highly privatised systems (e.g. USA: 16%) (OECD 2008). The system does charge fees in treating elective treatment for patients from abroad, but tourists who fall ill are treated free in Cuban hospitals. Cuba attracts patients mostly from Latin America and Europe by offering care of comparable quality to a developed nation but at much lower prices. Cuba's own health indicators are the best in Latin America and surpass those of the US in some respects (infant mortality rates, underweight babies, HIV infection, immunisation rates, doctor per population rates). (UNDP 2006: Tables 6,7,9,10) In 2005, Cuba spent 7.6% of GDP on health care, or US$310 per capita. Of that, approximately 91% was government expenditure.[18]

Note $310 per capita in Cuba vs $6350 in US for same year. Talk about playing softball.

Loren

 

[Loren49]

Just for balance on medical tourism:

United States
Although much attention has been given to the growing trend of uninsured Americans traveling to foreign countries, a report from 2008 found that a plurality of an estimated 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care.[61] The availability of advanced medical technology and sophisticated training of physicians are cited as driving motivators for growth in foreigners traveling to the U.S. for medical care. Also, it has been noted that the decline in value of the U.S. dollar is offering additional incentive for foreign travel to the U.S. However, costs differences between the US and many locations in Asia far outweigh any currency fluctuations.
Several major medical centers and teaching hospitals offer international patient centers that cater to patients from foreign countries who seek medical treatment in the U.S.[62] Many of these organizations offer service coordinators to assist international patients with arrangements for medical care, accommodations, finances and transportation including air ambulance services.
It should be noted that many locations in the US that offer medical care comparable in price to foreign medical facilities are not Joint Commission Accredited.

I predict many more under or uninsured US citizens would go to Cuba for some treatment if travel there was allowed.

Loren

 

[Jim2]

Now going to health care. If health care becomes "free" or "subsidized", will people use more or less of it?

I think healthy people use less healthcare. . . . Would you rather change your oil at regular intervals or replace your engine?

Jim

 

[Pilot]

Ah, there is one more wrinkle with using infant mortality as a measure of health care effectiveness: Not all countries use the same standard. Cuba and many other countries don't count in their infant mortality figures until the baby lives for a certain number of days. We count them if they die when born. Makes a big difference.

 

[Loren49]

Pilot-any references on that? I'd like to read more about it.

Loren

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

I think healthy people use less healthcare. . . . Would you rather change your oil at regular intervals or replace your engine?

Jim

Well if the government was paying for the Marfax in my crankcase, I'd be changing it twice a week.
But, if the government was offering to replace my engine, what impetus would there be for me to change my oil anyway. See obesity rates for welfare receipients for a comparison.

 

[keegs]

You could easily make the argument that in a for profit system, providers have a business incentive to provide services.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

FallbrockFarmer-some information now that you used Cuba as an example:

Cuba
Cuba has been a popular medical tourism destination for more than 40 years. Thousands of patients travel to Cuba, particularly from Latin America and Europe, attracted by the "fine reputation of Cuban doctors, the low prices and nearby beaches on which to recuperate."[53] In 2006, Cuba attracted nearly 20,000 health tourists.[54]
Medical treatments included joint replacement, cancer treatment, eye surgery, cosmetic surgery and addictions rehabilitation. Costs are about 60 to 80 percent less than US costs.
Cuba has hospitals for Cuban residents and others that focus on serving foreigners and diplomats. In the 2007 American documentary film, Sicko, which criticizes the US healthcare system, producer Michael Moore leads a group of uninsured American patients to Cuba to obtain more affordable medical treatment. Sicko has greatly increased foreigners' interest in Cuban healthcare. A recent Miami Herald story focused on the high quality of health care that Canadian and American medical tourism patients receive in Cuba.[55]
The Cuban government has developed Cuban medical tourism to generate income for the country. Residents of Canada, the UK and most other countries can travel to Cuba without any difficulty a tourist visa is generally required. For Americans, however, because of the US trade policy towards Cuba, travelers must either obtain US government approval, or, more frequently, travel to Cuba from Canada, Mexico, the Bahamas, Jamaica or the Dominican Republic. Cuban immigration authorities do not stamp the passports of US visitors so that Americans can keep their travels a private matter.
To date no Cuban facility has achieved JCI Accreditation.[51]


According to the UN, the life expectancy in Cuba is 78.3 years (76.2 for males and 80.4 for females). This ranks Cuba 37th in the world and 3rd in the Americas, behind only Canada and Chile, and just ahead of the United States. Infant mortality in Cuba declined from 32 (infant deaths per 1,000 live births) in 1957, to 10 in 1990?5 [124]. Infant mortality in 2000?005 was 6.1 per 1,000 live births (compared to 6.8 in the USA).

Cuba
Main article: Health care in Cuba
Health care in Cuba consists of a government-coordinated system that guarantees universal coverage and consumes a lower proportion of the nation's GDP (7.3%) than some highly privatised systems (e.g. USA: 16%) (OECD 2008). The system does charge fees in treating elective treatment for patients from abroad, but tourists who fall ill are treated free in Cuban hospitals. Cuba attracts patients mostly from Latin America and Europe by offering care of comparable quality to a developed nation but at much lower prices. Cuba's own health indicators are the best in Latin America and surpass those of the US in some respects (infant mortality rates, underweight babies, HIV infection, immunisation rates, doctor per population rates). (UNDP 2006: Tables 6,7,9,10) In 2005, Cuba spent 7.6% of GDP on health care, or US$310 per capita. Of that, approximately 91% was government expenditure.[18]

Note $310 per capita in Cuba vs $6350 in US for same year. Talk about playing softball.

Loren

Loren,
You've got me.
Only $310 vs. 6350.
Why its a absolute "health care paradise". One of the reasons that there is "popular medical tourism" that attracts thousands of foreigners, is that the money spent on the "quality" health care is NOT going to the average Cuban. When the average Cuban is rationed as to the amount of foodstuffs that they are allowed, are you ACTUALLY going to try and make a comparison between them and us?
You will note that I am not going to go into the fact that in Cuba there are REAL political prisoners, as opposed to some Hollywood wackjob's idea of persecution, here.

 

[FallbrookFarmer]

You could easily make the argument that in a for profit system, providers have a business incentive to provide services.

I have, and will continue to do so/wink.gif