Global Warming?

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   / Global Warming? #961  
Night-warming effect found over large wind farms in Texas

Posted: 30 Apr 2012 12:20 PM PDT

Large wind farms in certain areas in the United States appear to affect local land surface temperatures, according to a new article.
 
   / Global Warming? #962  
Killing Birds! RD hits at least 1 a year and drives less than I do. I have not hit a bird in 20 or 30 years. Would someone stretch the "Truth"

It might depend on where you live. I never hit a bird when I lived in Alabama, but I moved to Tennessee and I have hit 4 birds in the past 6 months. It's like they try to get hit or something. I've even been sitting in my living room and have them swoop down from the trees and knock themselves out on my living room window. Maybe they are just dumber up here or something.

Surface mining - Many years ago a law was passed that once an area was mined out it had to be returned to its original condition.

It has to be returned to AOC (Approximate Original Contour) not original condition. And it cannot cause or contribute to a degradation in the Nation's waters. Getting it back to AOC just means they pile rubble up and hydroseed it. So in about 15 years it might look as though it's okay but it won't be like it was originally. When you blast rock you destroy the natural fracture-flow system. This fracture-flow system acts almost like pipes conveying water to springs and streams. When you blast this and pile it back up it is basically like gravel. When it rains the water just drops right through it. This has caused entire headwater streams to dry up and that will obviously affect the local ecology.

Just FYI...not really trying to argue one way or the other.
 
   / Global Warming? #963  
I'm wondering what the orange grove folks do when a frosty night is imminent.:D
 
   / Global Warming? #964  
Killing Birds! RD hits at least 1 a year and drives less than I do. I have not hit a bird in 20 or 30 years. Would someone stretch the "Truth"
How long has it been since some hit a "Bald Eagle"?????
Wind Farms are exempt from fines - Oil Co. can be fined up to $28,000 per bird that gets covered with oil.

Surface mining - Many years ago a law was passed that once an area was mined out it had to be returned to its original condition.

Older coal plants did have many problems with pollutants.
Almost all of them have been fitted with scrubbers or shut down.
Tucson G&E has a coal fired PP almost down town, no pollution, acid rain or other problems.
Laughlin Nevada has a coal fired plant and the coal is delivered by pipe line. All their cooling water goes into a big pond where it is cooled & reused. I toured that plant about 12/15 years ago. No pollution problems with the plant.
Some coal plants are so close to the mine that coal is delivered by a conveyer belt.

My driving & waste - From my place its 25 miles just to the city limits. For groceries add 5 miles and most everything add another 10 to 20 miles. Almost every trip is multi purpose. And often a shared trip picking up things for other folks.
Where I live that " Little Subie" could not even get to town during the rainy season. We just spent the last 4 days working on the main road in and out. For a few years it will be passable most of the time, for most cars. From my house to that road is still limited.

Love it - Rants about mercury poisoning and bragging about using CFL bulbs.

Recycling - I can only talk about what we did from about 1940 on. Before that I was not on this earth. The "Big House" in town bought in 1943 or 4 was made of Adobe. When it was enlarged adobe's were made right in the yard. Our little house was 2 houses moved in and joined.

In that area there were many old building that had been abandoned, as much as possible that was where our building materials came from.
Even in town we had out buildings most of those were moved from somewhere else.

On our mining claims (Nothing was ever mined) the house was moved from town. Out buildings were made from used RR ties. Used metal roofing.

Almost everything I build here is made from used or salvaged material.

Maybe that is Real Recycling. What ya think?????

Boy oh Boy good old rsewill, still at it. The clean & green authority.
Had a Trucking business for 20 years. His words " I worked with junk equipment " First it was junk and that's what he called it when he sold it. Then all at once he called it "Used". We know that old "Junk" was clean & green. :) This is what he said "My blind wife drives 75 miles to work." When called on that he made up another lie. He has been caught in so many lies that I doubt any one believes him anymore.

Glad that so many of us have helped RD pay for his energy farm and he is able to make $$$$ off of it.

I didn't say I hit a bird a year, that was someone else. And moving wind mills and changing blade profiles cuts down bird kills expotentially.

It's not that you don't go into town every time you need one item it's what your total gallon usage is and mine is a lot lower than yours. You asked.

Did you ever see the mountains "returned to original condition". WV and Ky have flooding problems from mountains "returned to original condition". They run a path of rocks that creates flash floods.

Here's some pics for you:

Mountaintop Removal Mining - High Resolution Photos

Now let's talk about the cancer rates from polluted water from mining:

Go watch the ducumentary on Maytown Ky and the brain cancer rates on a single block. Four families had children and loved ones with brain tumors.

Study Finds Higher Cancer Rates in Mountaintop Mining Areas | FairWarning

"As The Charleston Gazette reports, the study was based on a door-to-door surveys of 773 people conducted in mountaintop mining and non-mining counties of West Virginia. It found a cancer rate of 14.4 percent in the mountaintop mining areas versus a rate of 9.4 percent where there was no mining."

Report: U.S. coal power plants emit toxic air pollutants

"Coal-fired power plants release more toxic air pollutants such as arsenic and lead than any other U.S. industrial pollution source, says a report Tuesday by the American Lung Association."

The report comes as the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency gets ready to propose rules to address this pollution, which it's required to do by March 16. Environmental and health care groups, including the ALA, are pushing for strict limits on pollutants. The industry seeks more flexibility.


Coal-Fired Power Plants - Water Pollution - The New York Times

"As coal-burning power plants have reduced their air emissions, many have created another problem: water pollution. While some regulators have used laws like the Clean Water Act to combat pollution, many plants have repeatedly violated that law without incurring fines. The New York Times has compiled data from the Environmental Protection Agency on coal-fired plants with permits to discharge pollutants, including factories that generate their own power."

Transportation of coal:

"Like all fuels, coal must be transported to an end user before it can be used. Specific transportation needs vary宥ulf Coast lignite is generally transported over very short distances to minemouth power plants, Appalachian and Illinois Basin coals are typically transported over somewhat longer distances from mine to market, and coal mined in the Powder River Basin may travel distances ranging from less than 100 miles to more than 1,500 miles before it reaches the user (NCC, 2006). Therefore, growth in coal use depends on having sufficient capacity to deliver increasing amounts of coal reliably and at reasonable prices. Conversely, insufficient capacity, insufficient confidence in reliable delivery, or excessive transportation prices could reduce or eliminate growth in coal use."

Coal plants with Scrubbers:

Scrubber Retrofits at Existing Coal Plants - SourceWatch

(see chart) Pay close attention to the 628 with NONE! That's less than 16% of US coal plants with scrubbers.


As for my energy, I would do it ( and did) if no one paid, you can do the same thing and I don't complain about people with three, four or five kids getting tax breaks. There are a lot more people gettng tax breaks for that then renewables, why aren't you complaining about that?

Rob
 

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   / Global Warming? #965  

That's like a guy playing poker with you who's showing you his hand while he's shouting he has a better hand than you even though he has no idea what you're holding!



But what's them cards up his sleeve you cain't see??:thumbsup:

I can see you didn't understand the analogy.
 
   / Global Warming? #966  
Night-warming effect found over large wind farms in Texas

Posted: 30 Apr 2012 12:20 PM PDT

Large wind farms in certain areas in the United States appear to affect local land surface temperatures, according to a new article.

It's a conversion process! Wind is being converted to electricity, there are always efficiency losses. Coal converted to electric has efficiency losses, nuclear, etc. You don't get 100% efficiency, it's impossible. Heat is the result. Grab a 60 watt incandescent lamp, you can't hold it but an equivalent CFL only uses 9 watts, it's a lot cooler BUT both heat the area around the lamp just at different efficiencies! Everything that converts creates heat in the area. Geeze!

Rob
 
   / Global Warming? #967  
Did you ever see the mountains "returned to original condition". WV and Ky have flooding problems from mountains "returned to original condition". They run a path of rocks that creates flash floods.

Rob

WV, KY, & VA have flooding problems from mountains...period. And what do you mean "They run a path of rocks that creates flash floods."? If anything, the "reclaimed" mountains lessen flooding.
 
   / Global Warming? #968  
It's a conversion process! Wind is being converted to electricity, there are always efficiency losses. Coal converted to electric has efficiency losses, nuclear, etc. You don't get 100% efficiency, it's impossible. Heat is the result. Grab a 60 watt incandescent lamp, you can't hold it but an equivalent CFL only uses 9 watts, it's a lot cooler BUT both heat the area around the lamp just at different efficiencies! Everything that converts creates heat in the area. Geeze!

Rob

I don't think he was arguing for or against that necessarily. However, it would be hard for me to believe the "inefficiencies" were heating the area. If that were the case, why wouldn't the surrounding area heat during the day? There are theories that the turbulence created by the turbines pull down warmer air to slightly increase the temperature near the surface.
 
   / Global Warming? #969  
WV, KY, & VA have flooding problems from mountains...period. And what do you mean "They run a path of rocks that creates flash floods."? If anything, the "reclaimed" mountains lessen flooding.

Mountaintop-removal mining is devastating Appalachia, but residents are fighting back | Grist

"As a result, 6,700 ç*ºalley fills were approved in central Appalachia between 1985 and 2001. The U.S. EPA estimates that over 700 miles of healthy streams have been completely buried by mountaintop removal and thousands more have been damaged."


Alongside this ecological devastation lies an even more ominous human dimension: an Eastern Kentucky University study found that children in Letcher County, Ky., suffer from an alarmingly high rate of nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, and shortness of breath symptoms of something called blue baby syndrome that can all be traced back to sedimentation and dissolved minerals that have drained from mine sites into nearby streams. Long-term effects may include liver, kidney, and spleen failure, bone damage, and cancers of the digestive tract.


"Block Hollow and replaced it with the compacted rubble of a valley fill. In a region prone to flash floods, nothing was left to hold back the rain; this once-forested watershed had been turned into an enormous funnel. In 2002, three so-called hundred-year floods happened in 10 days. Between the blasting and the flooding, the people of McRoberts have been nearly flushed out of their homes."

Rob
 
   / Global Warming? #970  
I don't think he was arguing for or against that necessarily. However, it would be hard for me to believe the "inefficiencies" were heating the area. If that were the case, why wouldn't the surrounding area heat during the day? There are theories that the turbulence created by the turbines pull down warmer air to slightly increase the temperature near the surface.

So what do you think creates more heat a coal plant furnace or a wind mill?

Are we measuring the area around a coal plant? A nuclear plant, the water heated by the nuclear plant?
 
   / Global Warming? #971  
Mountaintop-removal mining is devastating Appalachia, but residents are fighting back | Grist

"As a result, 6,700 ç*ºalley fills were approved in central Appalachia between 1985 and 2001. The U.S. EPA estimates that over 700 miles of healthy streams have been completely buried by mountaintop removal and thousands more have been damaged."

"Block Hollow and replaced it with the compacted rubble of a valley fill. In a region prone to flash floods, nothing was left to hold back the rain; this once-forested watershed had been turned into an enormous funnel. In 2002, three so-called hundred-year floods happened in 10 days. Between the blasting and the flooding, the people of McRoberts have been nearly flushed out of their homes."

Rob

I am not arguing mining doesn't have negative impacts so I don't need all that other info. I was just challenging your original statement. Mining operations do increase runoff. Valley fills are thought to increase runoff but I think it's more likely other reasons before and during mining rather than after mining.

You cut off the beginning of the sentence: "Then TECO sheared off all of the vegetation at the head of Chopping Block Hollow..." Most likely, the removal of vegetation is the culprit of excessive runoff and sedimentation. Strangely enough, those valley fills might actually hold more water than when that rock was naturally in place because the soil porosity has greatly increased therefore the water holding capacity is much higher. One of the biggest problems with valley fills is that since its is permeable and the volume of rock has a higher surface area, more minerals dissolve into the water that ends up in streams below. This greatly increases TDS (total dissolved solids) which is becoming more recognized as a in-stream "stressor" to the ecology.
 
   / Global Warming? #973  
Think sometimes them big wind turbine electrical turbines create vortices that may jumble up warm and warmer air meaning the warm and warmer could be inverted or maybe subducted making changes to the normal air energy level.:D
 
   / Global Warming? #974  
So what do you think creates more heat a coal plant furnace or a wind mill?

Are we measuring the area around a coal plant? A nuclear plant, the water heated by the nuclear plant?

Exactly. I would say a coal plant furnace (itself) would be warmer than a wind mill. Was that a serious question? That is sort of my point. There could be other reasons as I stated that could cause the area around the wind turbine to warm. Why are we talking about a coal plant anyways? I think you get a little too defensive in your posts.
 
   / Global Warming? #975  
It's a conversion process! Wind is being converted to electricity, there are always efficiency losses. Coal converted to electric has efficiency losses, nuclear, etc. You don't get 100% efficiency, it's impossible. Heat is the result. Grab a 60 watt incandescent lamp, you can't hold it but an equivalent CFL only uses 9 watts, it's a lot cooler BUT both heat the area around the lamp just at different efficiencies! Everything that converts creates heat in the area. Geeze!

Rob

Yep, but that isn't even the cause...if such there be. Even the article explains that it is caused by the turbiens stirring up the air causing cooler air near ground to be replaced by warmer air up a little higher.

Fox News report. FWIW - usual distortion in headlines and bury the "facts" as deeply as possible in the report.

Anyone who knows the first law of thermo knows that any local gain in energy _here_ has to result in a local loss _over there_.

Harry K
 
   / Global Warming? #976  
Think sometimes them big wind turbine electrical turbines create vortices that may jumble up warm and warmer air meaning the warm and warmer could be inverted or maybe subducted making changes to the normal air energy level.:D

Agreed. That's what I was trying to say to Rob-D but then he turned it into coal plants, etc.
 
   / Global Warming? #977  
Yep, but that isn't even the cause...if such there be. Even the article explains that it is caused by the turbiens stirring up the air causing cooler air near ground to be replaced by warmer air up a little higher.

Fox News report. FWIW - usual distortion in headlines and bury the "facts" as deeply as possible in the report.

Anyone who knows the first law of thermo knows that any local gain in energy _here_ has to result in a local loss _over there_.

Harry K

Yeah that's why some people go as far as using large fans to blow over their crop if they think there will be a late frost. Frost occurs on cloudless/windless nights because the air stratifies with much colder air on bottom. If you use large fans to mix that air then you have a chance a preventing frost. I've seen large operations actually go as far as to fly helicopters over a 30 acre crop to prevent frost. That blew my mind!
 
   / Global Warming? #978  
I am not arguing mining doesn't have negative impacts so I don't need all that other info. I was just challenging your original statement. Mining operations do increase runoff. Valley fills are thought to increase runoff but I think it's more likely other reasons before and during mining rather than after mining.

You cut off the beginning of the sentence: "Then TECO sheared off all of the vegetation at the head of Chopping Block Hollow..." Most likely, the removal of vegetation is the culprit of excessive runoff and sedimentation. Strangely enough, those valley fills might actually hold more water than when that rock was naturally in place because the soil porosity has greatly increased therefore the water holding capacity is much higher. One of the biggest problems with valley fills is that since its is permeable and the volume of rock has a higher surface area, more minerals dissolve into the water that ends up in streams below. This greatly increases TDS (total dissolved solids) which is becoming more recognized as a in-stream "stressor" to the ecology.

Thanks for the info.
Rob
 
   / Global Warming? #979  
Yeah that's why some people go as far as using large fans to blow over their crop if they think there will be a late frost. Frost occurs on cloudless/windless nights because the air stratifies with much colder air on bottom. If you use large fans to mix that air then you have a chance a preventing frost. I've seen large operations actually go as far as to fly helicopters over a 30 acre crop to prevent frost. That blew my mind!

I agree, cloud cover usually = warmth.

I brought in the coal plants for comparison, regardless how each system creates and disturbs the environment it's not possible to extract or convert energy without heat. Entropy balances the event.

Carnot Cycles anyone?

Rob
 
   / Global Warming? #980  
Yeah that's why some people go as far as using large fans to blow over their crop if they think there will be a late frost. Frost occurs on cloudless/windless nights because the air stratifies with much colder air on bottom. If you use large fans to mix that air then you have a chance a preventing frost. I've seen large operations actually go as far as to fly helicopters over a 30 acre crop to prevent frost. That blew my mind!

In fact they hire helicopters to fly over the vineyards to mix the air preventing ground level frost.
 
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