Global Warming?
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Gee, all along I thought the big secret of the Bush administration was WMDs!
locknut
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It's working pretty good.You've got your own little system and that's nice.Where do you think the energy came from to make all those components you built your system from? Windmills,solar panels? Of course not.
Widespread Wind and solar power are NOT sustainable no matter how large you make it.Have you ever thought about that?
It does not have the the power density to SUSTAIN its own infrastructure.
You should spend more time on the science blogs for the bigger picture.
crash325
Elite Member
2 Whole days of power. - Isn't that just great. I am "Totally" impressed.:laughing::laughing::laughing:
I hope you're not trying to tell me that we can't use wind and PV to make more wind and PV.
I posted a link from International Rectifier's trade journal elsewhere here that stated that the energy used to make a PV module is recovered in the first year of use with 29 years of energy produced after that.
Energy is energy, the energy from algae that is today's fossil fuel was a product of the sun, not only is it not self sustaining but it is a consumable.
Here's the blog I'm spending time on: I'm getting ready to order more PV to supplement my system that's already in. It will cost me a $1.20 a watt before incentives and between that PV and the wind mills I'm building I'll be heating my house with a monetary recovery of two to three years at current oil prices and we all know oil prices aren't going to rise.
How's your heating cooling bill working out?
There's so much misinformation and bad press out about alternatives because groups that want to control the energy you buy don't want to see you independent of their grip. They spread media pabulum and it shows up in posts here where people simply parrot their hype. Congratulations, go read the work of a guy named Ed Bernays, he showed the corporate world that people don't make decisions on logic and reason but emotions.
What do you think the pioneers of this country did, twaddle away their lives watching some jamoke run up and down a field with a ball? They were too busy finding out about the world for themselves. We spend millions upon millions of dollars for sports, make these buffoons who can't complete a sentence heroes while we pay exorbitant amounts of money for the gas in our cars.
What's wrong with this picture? Ed Bernays would be proud!
Rob
Apparently you missed the part about 22 percent of the system load. If we had been developing wind and PV instead of using coal and oil the figures would be reversed.
But let me ask you too, I already have free electricity and I'll be heating my house with alternatives that will recoup in two to three years, what's your plan? Keep paying for oil but make sure not to miss the super bowl?
Rob
crash325
Elite Member
AH - Rob D. Mister self proclaimed expert on life, world and all things electrical. Who does not mind stretching the truth if it fits into need to tell other people what to do and how to live. Your view of life is so very, very narrow and anyone that does not fit into YOUR mold is wrong.
So you had 2 days of wind power and it supplied 22% of your load. I'm still very impressed.
Looks like you are so busy keeping you power system up, working & running that you resent people that watch sports. Everyone, in your opinion should be out there building or Fixing their power system.
Just a little reality, without coal and other fossil fuel, you could not have built any of your fine system. Maybe your plastic solar panels are made out of crude oil.
One post you say you paid for it all yourself. Another you talk about the incentives & tax credits you used or got.
Another big lie a while back 'Coal has to be transported 1500 miles to many coal plants. There is no plant getting its coal from that distance.
If wind & solar are so good and cheap, why do power company's that use it charge more than those using coal or natural gas????
One thing you have never addressed is how much worse global warming is than global Cooling. What ya gonna do if Global Cooling starts. Another Mini Ice Age would be a much larger problem than the current warming.
EE_Bota
Elite Member
He was talking about a utility grid in Texas where the windmills provided 22% of the entire area's load.
No, you're not getting it. You're saying alternatives don't work so I ask what your solution is?
I'm making a comparison. I don't know who won the ball game but I have free electricity and will have free heat by next year. It's called priorities, I figure the things I want to do for pure enjoyment should come after the things that I do that make my life better ,simpler and less expensive. So, one more time, what's you solution to rising fuel and electricity costs. I'll bet you know who won the super bowl but I'll also bet you pay an electric bill. Get it!
No, not me 22% of ERCOT's load!
Yes, I got a grant, that I went after and applied for on my intertie, my off grid system was paid for by me with a 30% back from the government. If I didn't get the 30% back I would have still put it in.
PV is people power, when I put a system in corporate energy doesn't make a monthly profit from me, they don't have a ring through my nose that they yank on every time they raise my cost. What's you solution to that? What are you doing for your family to stop paying a monthly electric bill? You don't like PV so what's your answer?
You haven't given me any answers except burning wood that you have to buy gas to cut. This year I'll completely stop buying fuel oil for my heat, I would think that an intelligent person wouldn't be negative but would ask, "How can I do that." People ask me that everyday but there are always people who would rather sit in the dark and be naysayers. That's called cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.
So for the last time, what's your solution? Keep buying oil from the people who want to terrorize us? Fighting wars to procure the oil to keep living our extravagant life styles? We have 5% or the world's population and use 25% of the world's energy, I'd call that extravagant.
I think this country is in dire trouble, read Gibbon on the fall of the Roman Empire, we're paralleling them and we better think about what to do about that.
You think we shouldn't subsidize new technology than what should we do? Electronics is my field and the advances coming out with renewables today are tremendous but if you think I'm wrong show me data proving your point.
You can't simply call people who disagree with you liars, that's intellectual bankruptcy, you have to actually make a sound statement based on reason. I've been in this field for over 50 years and you're trying to tell me I'm wrong? OK prove it!
Rob
Don't confuse him with facts, his mind is made up!
EE_Bota
Elite Member
I think he may be suspicious due to some of the half truths and falsehoods he has seen surrounding this issue, and I don't blame him. I only meant to correct a possible misinterpretation of the point being made.
So far as I know, wind is only plagued by the irregularity of the wind. Propellers work, gearboxes work, and rotary electric machines work. We should all accept that, and it is beyond debate in my opinion. Wind blows sometimes, and sometimes it does not, but studies are no doubt done to profile the expected output of the site.
Solar only works when the sun is shining, and it may be complimentary to wind in some cases, and in some cases it may not be. But since it starts as DC, some folks have storage. (I'm not instructing you, I am just going on the record with my opinion.)
The unpredictability of the weather conditions, the predictable night cycle, and the unpredictability of the wind leaves a requirement for other forms of generation, and these forms will likely be gas, coal, and nuclear.
I doubt any of us know it well enough to work out the economics of all of that from our own vantage point, though there are likely people who do know enough. But if we allow the free market to work, if then more and more wind and solar generation develops, it should be taken as sufficient indication that is is worthwhile from an economic viewpoint.
To me, it is just as simple as that. But (and there is always a but)
Where other money (mine) it put into it through the government, I will never know what to make of the proliferation of new sites, and I will never be able to take growth in the number of sites as evidence of economic viability.
I don't mind some support for a while, but I am not interested in a new "Amtrac" version of the electric grid.
I am willing to acknowledge that utility companies are local monopolies, and I don't expect free enterprise to compete with a monopoly. But we should work to make sure that the monopoly aspect only encompasses the power lines, and fight all monopolistic practices on the generation side. But (another one)
There is a tendency through ignorance to underestimate what the established generation actually does. It will never be tenable for utility company conventional generation to act as emergency backup for inconsistent technologies without those generators being adequately compensated for that role, nor should they have to handle and assure all the reactive power needs are met while others claim the proceeds of real power production.
Not everyone will know what I mean by that, but I expect you do, Rob, and since it is based in engineering truth and economic truth as well, I expect you will agree.
Egon
Epic Contributor
<Widespread Wind and solar power are NOT sustainable no matter how large you make it.Have you ever thought about that?>
Guess the Dutch never heard of this statement when they were reclaiming land!:thumbsup:
Guess the Dutch never heard of this statement when they were reclaiming land!:thumbsup:
crash325
Elite Member
Chances are we could agree on lots of things, were you an honest person and not such an egotistical, person and wanting to force things onto other folks.
I am not against wind or solar. I am against my $$ paying for Your power.
Get it.
So even without 30% from me and other tax payers you would have done it anyway. Quit taking the money, from all your BS you Don't Need It. Now my $$ are helping You Make Money. That is Wrong.
Local coop that I get my power from, is getting power from wind & Solar, they give $$ & Credits for installation and have a buy back program. Who is paying for it?? Me and other folks with Much, Much higher rates than those people in Tucson that get their power from coal. Yep its about 40%. I know this is hard for you to believe, but people in Tucson are not dying from acid rain or cancer from the coal plant. That coal is not transported 1,500 miles by the way. ADDRESS THAT.
What about poor people that can not afford, solar panels & such. They are helping to pay for YOURS. Send them a few bucks now and then to say thank you.
You skirt every issue that does not agree with your narrow mold of how people should live.
Sports is bad, energy co.'s are bad. oil & coal company's are bad. Wake up and smell the flowers. Oil & Coal co.s will take over all the other energy sources once they are profitable. They have the money to buy them.
My $$$ nor anyone else s should not be paying for, your power, the gov. bailing out failing solar or wind co.s Solindra is the #1 example that, but there are about 20 more.
Apparently you don't have a clue about global Cooing or just afraid to mention it as it dose not fit into your model of the world.
Fact & Figures - You have posted enough, of them along with lies & 1/2 truths to fill a book. Try thinking for yourself without the ego.
For the most part I do. The first step in technology, regardless of the technology, is accepting its warts. Certainly batteries in off grid, but the thing about technology is that it gives us real possibilities for the future.
With the prices of solar panels dropping at the rate they are I can now do things unthinkable ten years ago, things like heating with PV.
I just got the latest issue of "Machine Design" a trade journal on all the new technologies coming out. Its written for engineers and this issue addresses the new wind technologies. The op-ed piece talks about the need for new wind designs to overcome some of the past problems.
There's a whole section on wind designs coming out and in the works that will do away with gear boxes and have floating platforms for off shore wind where there is a steady wind supply. New wind will also reach up higher where the wind is several times more robust. there will be a point when we have several harnessing systems so that we get relatively consistent power.
Right now wind a PV do compliment each other quite well, new wave technologies are coming out too and let's not forget the new super capacitor technologies. I just got done designing a driveway alarm to alert us when people come up our 600 + foot driveway. What's interesting is that it uses no batteries and last indefinitely using 50F super caps and a solar cell from those cheap garden lights at HD. The technology within the circuit allows me to contour the current to picoamp levels and transmit a signal to my house, all in a box the size of a pill bottle.
If we conserved today we could come very close to autonomy like I have and while the transition to renewables won't be over night we can make a large dent in our usage right now and that is promising when you think of where we were 10 or 15 years ago.
People here are talking like technology isn't moving forward, making statements that haven't been true for ten years. Basically that's a fear of change, again, go read about Ed Bernays, Freud's nephew, he knew how to play that like a fiddle and he taught the corporations that want to keep selling us products we buy with emotions and not logic.
Rob
WHAT'S YOUR SOLUTION??
Global cooling is an aspect of climate change, 84 to 86% of the scientists in the world beleive it is occuring, apparently so do you!
Gator6x4
Super Star Member
You and I must be getting our weather news from different planets. The planet I am getting my weather news from says last year, 2011 broke and set all kinds of new records. Even the great State of Texas was impacted. The same planet I get my weather news from is predicting another reecord year in 2012.
Record Heat of 2011 - weather.com
crash325
Elite Member
My Solution is to get the government out of it, end all subsidies from gov or power co's.
if the technology is great & good it will stand on its own. People will go there of their own accord.
Depending on who you believe, there is enough fossil fuel for 25, 50 or 150 years. Even at 25 years that is more than enough time for all the green things to come into their own. Without being forced on folks and other folks paying for them.
I'm not saying cooling is coming. I am saying it would be Far Worse than warming.
There were roughly 2.600 regulations already on the books. Another 2.600 were not needed. Phony crap like turning corn into fuel and getting and getting a subsidy to do it and at the same time raising the price of gasoline. Not mention it also cost food costs to go up.
tallyho8
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You are replying to a post that was written in 2006, not 2011.
This always amuses me,we want to get the government out of it. We went to the moon, that was tax dollars paying for technology, rich and poor and that technology has helped us all.
Pollution is a real problem, acid rain from coal, has polluted our oceans and lakes, I have posted links here showing the devastation from that. I have posted links showing the massive pollution from coal fired electric plants that bring us 54% of our electricity, the leaking coal slurries in WV and NC, etc.
Whether we accept CC or not, world pollution is a real problem that we have to address.
So your solution is to get the government out of it? That's not a solution, a solution might be to find a way to have a low pollution foot print but you burn wood which is adding to acid rain and pollution.
We subsidize wars in the middle east to secure oil, are you against that too?
We have no idea how much oil there is in the ground and if we did it wouldn't stop the polluting from that oil, the smog on our roads the sickness the World Health Org. states is coming from that pollution and the expense to everyone on this planet paying for the ill effects of that pollution.
So, do you have a solution? A solution on the individual level that is actually subtracting from world pollution and not adding to it. I'm all ears.
Rob
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