Glyphosate - related to bee decline

   / Glyphosate - related to bee decline #161  

Thank you. I checked some of the many websites on the list you provided; some appear to be still in business. Some have no updates for a few years. One will advise if they re-open. Some state that all of their produce is organic. No doubt there are some out there weed whacking and hoeing their way to a genuinely chemical free tree. Maybe several trees. If you live within driving distance of one of those places, buy a tree from them, they earned your business.
What you can't do is say that since the North American Christmas tree growers tend to use herbicides the only sane alternative is to buy one of the petrochemical products from Asia.
 
   / Glyphosate - related to bee decline #162  
Thanks for your response. The references cited all seem to be for veggies in a short rotation. They cite crop rotation which is a great principle, as well as cultivation. On a 8 to 10 year rotational cycle neither of those methods are practical in Christmas trees.

I have an acquaintance who provides the organic milk for the Wegman's chain milking thousands of Holsteins and growing corn, hay, and beans for feed. I haven't leaned on him for what he does, and while corn and beans are 1 year rotation crops, he probably gets a few years out of alfalfa. I also have the feeling that it's possible to be certified organic while still using moderate amounts of "approved" chemicals.
Years ago my son worked at the landscape plant wholesale nursery primarily hoeing for 8 or 10 hours a day. A few days later that field got sprayed to keep weeds in check. (Yes, he was developing some NFL forearms.)
FWIW I don't use any chemicals or petro based fertilizers anywhere near my home or vegetable garden. I really am searching for a practical approach to weed management. As I stated earlier I really don't enjoy pumping this **** into our already ill atmosphere.

What I have seen is well intentioned folks attempting organic Christmas trees and after 4 or 5 years they realize they have a tremendous crop of weeds and brush with some ratty trees thrown in.That is a lot of wasted time and money. I haven't seen anyone succeed. There are a few studies out there from UNC and Penn State really dissing attempts at Organic trees.

I didn't realize you were growing Christmas trees; not row crops. Some of the methods may still work. I was intrigued by the "flaming" method. Seems like that might have some promise. Sometimes we are too "all or nothing"; perhaps a goal of *reducing* chemical usage is more attainable? I don't know if grass is okay, or if you need the soil bare between your rows, but what about a cover crop? This method of restoring a lawn: in early spring plant annual rye (if you don't want the grass to persist) or a contractor's mix (if you want it to stay year after year); it shoots up fast and outcompetes almost any weed you care to name. Of course everything gets expensive on 15 miles of rows.

As for the home garden, that one's pretty easy. At the end of the growing season, scoop all the surface soil into a large pile along with some shredded lawn waste for composting, which obviously kills weeds and pests in the soil. You can then cover the bare garden with almost anything--newspapers, plastic sheeting, etc.--to keep it weed free if you need to. Then in late spring re-spread the topsoil. If you only use half your garden each season and let the other half lay fallow, your compost will have a whole year to "cook."

To keep weeds under control during the garden season, I don't use rows because they provide a ton of space for weeds to grow in between your veggies. I plant things in sections that are small enough for me to lean over and tend the middle (around 4x4') and I also plant the seeds much closer together than recommended on the seed pack. The result is a dense stand of veggies that shades out most of the weeds (and also requires little to no watering). In the narrow paths between each section, I dump some cheap mulch which helps hold moisture in the soil, makes for nice paths for tending the garden, puts a damper on the weeds, and any weeds that do pop up, lift out very easily.

I'm an experimental gardener. :) I'm always trying new methods to try to get better results with less effort. Next spring I want to try the old Indian method for low maintenance gardening: in one hole plant a corn seed, a climbing bean seed, and a squash seed. The corn stalk is for the bean to climb, and the squash shades out any weeds and keeps the soil moist.

I wonder what would happen if you planted squash in your rows. ? Squash will reseed itself every year if you leave the fruit. :)
 
   / Glyphosate - related to bee decline #163  
I went to bio degradeable plastic mulch covers for weeds. Nothing else could keep them down unless we were out there every day weeding. You poke holes in it and plant. If you are real good you'll have a drip hose under there as well! But you don't need it. We grow everything - from potatoes to radishes, beets, pumpkin. onions. - No chemicals. For two years we've put potatoes under raised row covers to keep out the potato bugs. The bugs will land on the cover looking for a way in!

Our organic gardening!-- Just up the road they are harvesting potatoes. Green fields to dead brown foliage in two days once sprayed. Then the equipment comes into dig - truckloads head for the storage barns. I keep thinking - glyphosate special potatoes. In the past they would wait until after the first frost to harvest or the potatoes finished their natural cycle and died on their own.
 
   / Glyphosate - related to bee decline #165  
Hoeing weeds is a lost art. Growing up, we had sugar beets and the best weeding crews were worth the money. I remember being told to learn how from them and weed a field of sugar beets. What I found was that they had the skill to catch the weed with the hoe and pull it out by roots, ending it forever. My skill was mostly cutting the tops off, leaving root which often resulted in a stubborn weed coming right back in a few weeks. My part looked very clean for a week, then started looking bad. I had to weed it a number of times, where the pros only had to weed once or twice. The professionals also thinned the beets to optimize spacing. I don't remember the tonnage we got per acre, but know that the fields where pros did the weeding and thinning out produced the other fields significantly...
 
   / Glyphosate - related to bee decline #166  
The two compounds are similar in chemical structure...the related and often reported maladies (cancers) are similar also...
I would not call the over 8000 (roundup) lawsuits against Monsanto a reflection of minor "trace amounts" The AO injuries are factual as well...duh!

And a distinct lack of any of the law suits winning.
 
   / Glyphosate - related to bee decline #167  
I'm the one who brout Agent Orange into the discussion, so if you want to learn how it got here you will have to read the thread, not just take things out of context.
We've done good though; usually it only take two days before a discussion devolves into everybody stateing their viewpoints without even considering what others are saying. This one lasted 6 days.

Sorry, I should have added a LOL to my post. It was meant as a 'funny'
 
   / Glyphosate - related to bee decline #168  
if it lays there long enough to do so. Rain will get to it way before it degrades.
Round up most likely degrades at some point. If it didn't, I wouldn't keep having to spray my fence lines

It degrades soon after it reaches the ground. What it degrades into is the problem...if there is one.
 
   / Glyphosate - related to bee decline #169  
All that Roundup treats is the foliage; it does nothing to the roots and/or the seeds.

wrong. It kills the roots. That is why it had a 7-10 period after spraying before effects showed. They fixed the nonexistent problem (people thought it didn't work) by added stuff that would show an effect on the tops the next day.
 
   / Glyphosate - related to bee decline #170  
I went to bio degradeable plastic mulch covers for weeds. Nothing else could keep them down unless we were out there every day weeding. You poke holes in it and plant. If you are real good you'll have a drip hose under there as well! But you don't need it. We grow everything - from potatoes to radishes, beets, pumpkin. onions. - No chemicals. For two years we've put potatoes under raised row covers to keep out the potato bugs. The bugs will land on the cover looking for a way in!

Our organic gardening!-- Just up the road they are harvesting potatoes. Green fields to dead brown foliage in two days once sprayed. Then the equipment comes into dig - truckloads head for the storage barns. I keep thinking - glyphosate special potatoes. In the past they would wait until after the first frost to harvest or the potatoes finished their natural cycle and died on their own.

Ah, those potato bugs. Where do they come from. I had neighbors out here in the county that none of them did gardenign (large farms). I planted potatoes in my garden and lost them to a hord of potato bugs almost overnight. Saved the next years potatoes by liberal doses fo Sevin.
 

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