Markcuda
Veteran Member
I had a 1973 Buick Riviera in 1980ish, no GM vehicles since, and never.
GM being sued
- Thread starter ericher69
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What needs to be considered is - What company controls were in place ?
"But Barra, questioned repeatedly at a news conference, said she could not explain why engineers at GM approved a switch that did not meet the company's performance standards."
GM inquiry into defective ignition switch draws fire - Los Angeles Times
While I expect there were plenty of financial controls in place for the car programs in question, given how long this problem dragged on for it seems pretty apparent that there were few real engineering controls and oversight in place. Executive deniability is a pretty common contagion, which unfortunately seems to have infected GM's Engineering sector.
13 deaths (documented, so far)..... you can play with manufacturing stats all you want.... I see a negligent culture, that might get corrected by major lawsuits.
Rgds, D.
"But Barra, questioned repeatedly at a news conference, said she could not explain why engineers at GM approved a switch that did not meet the company's performance standards."
GM inquiry into defective ignition switch draws fire - Los Angeles Times
While I expect there were plenty of financial controls in place for the car programs in question, given how long this problem dragged on for it seems pretty apparent that there were few real engineering controls and oversight in place. Executive deniability is a pretty common contagion, which unfortunately seems to have infected GM's Engineering sector.
13 deaths (documented, so far)..... you can play with manufacturing stats all you want.... I see a negligent culture, that might get corrected by major lawsuits.
Rgds, D.
PoorPlowboy
Platinum Member
Did the key rotate back to "off" or all the way back to "lock," locking the steering wheel?
Monster5601
Platinum Member
To off, not to lock.
jejeosborne
Veteran Member
I think you are over thinking what is going on here. These ignition switches are not failing. They are working as designed. I am an industrial engineer with background in quality control. Not only are these switches not failing, they all left the manufacturing environment passing inspection because they were built to spec. After seeing the videos of how easy it is to turn off the ignition, I now am surprised more deaths and injuries haven't been reported.
jejeosborne
Veteran Member
You could have done all that with the engine shutting off too? How do we know some of these accidents didn't happen during a time of emergency and having the engine turn off was the straw that broke the camels back?
Let me give you a possible scenario:
You are driving along and another driver veers into your lane. You take immediate action and decide to drive through the rough grassy median to avoid a collision. The bumpy surface bounces your key ring and turns off the ignition while you are trying to straighten out your skidding car through the grass. Your lack of power steering has slowed the required need to quickly steer into the skid. You strike an object and your airbags don't deploy because your ignition is off. Your loved one (choose your favorite) is killed but would have survived had the air bag deployed. Would you replace that vehicle with another car with the same known design (and get a gym membership to strengthen your core and arms so this won't happen again) or be pissed off and avoid that design and purchase something different?
Gary Fowler
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Folks are quick to jump GM for being negligent when I suspect that much of the fault with fatalities is with the driver failing to react to a simple emergency situation or pushing the envelope with excessive speed being the real culprit.
Speaking of negligence in manufacturing, anyone see the documentary on the Remington 700 rifle that fires when unloading. One has to push the safety off in order to unload the gun and this sometimes cause the gun to fire without pulling the trigger. Remington has known about it since first months of manufacturing as the designer came up with a fix that would cost $.05 per unit to install. Remington said that it was too costly and continued to KNOWLINGLY manufacture them with the defective safety. Even after settling several lawsuits where deaths have occurred due to this, they continued to manufacture it up until a few year ago when they finally put in a new safety system. NOW THAT IS NEGLIGENCE TO THE NTH DEGREE. To this day, Remington refuses to acknowledge that there is a problem with the gun. Today after MILLIONS of these rifles have been made, it would bankrupt the company to make a recall on these guns and only refer to owners that they will put in a new trigger system for owners if they will ship their guns to the manufacturer and wait 6 months or more for them to fix them AND the owner has to pay for the repair.
Engineers don't always get it right with the specifications on every item which is why they sometimes have to recall some manufactured items. Not every recall is a life threatening situation either. In todays world, no one thinks of themselves as being responsible for anything and want to sue, sue, sue for their mistakes. No one can make an idiot proof machine, but todays society assumes that anything for sale should be safe for any idiot to use. Anyone recall the issue where a woman put her new RV on "cruise" and went back to make a sandwich which off course lead to a crash which then made manufacturers put a warning in the operators manual to explain how it doesn't drive itself. What kind of idiot thinks cruise controls makes a vehicle drive itself, but I am sure they sued the company (might even have got some money from it).
It is just sad to see that our society in the last few decades has become a nation of "not my fault" when any thing happens.
Speaking of negligence in manufacturing, anyone see the documentary on the Remington 700 rifle that fires when unloading. One has to push the safety off in order to unload the gun and this sometimes cause the gun to fire without pulling the trigger. Remington has known about it since first months of manufacturing as the designer came up with a fix that would cost $.05 per unit to install. Remington said that it was too costly and continued to KNOWLINGLY manufacture them with the defective safety. Even after settling several lawsuits where deaths have occurred due to this, they continued to manufacture it up until a few year ago when they finally put in a new safety system. NOW THAT IS NEGLIGENCE TO THE NTH DEGREE. To this day, Remington refuses to acknowledge that there is a problem with the gun. Today after MILLIONS of these rifles have been made, it would bankrupt the company to make a recall on these guns and only refer to owners that they will put in a new trigger system for owners if they will ship their guns to the manufacturer and wait 6 months or more for them to fix them AND the owner has to pay for the repair.
Engineers don't always get it right with the specifications on every item which is why they sometimes have to recall some manufactured items. Not every recall is a life threatening situation either. In todays world, no one thinks of themselves as being responsible for anything and want to sue, sue, sue for their mistakes. No one can make an idiot proof machine, but todays society assumes that anything for sale should be safe for any idiot to use. Anyone recall the issue where a woman put her new RV on "cruise" and went back to make a sandwich which off course lead to a crash which then made manufacturers put a warning in the operators manual to explain how it doesn't drive itself. What kind of idiot thinks cruise controls makes a vehicle drive itself, but I am sure they sued the company (might even have got some money from it).
It is just sad to see that our society in the last few decades has become a nation of "not my fault" when any thing happens.
Kyle_in_Tex
Super Star Member
All this bashing. Do any of you think that only GM can cover up?
Ford Pinto. enough said.
If those who are bashing had the time to pick the brains of any brand's service adviser, you'll find that every brand has their problems. Even Honda, Toyota, Lexus, and KUBOTA.
Ford Pinto. enough said.
If those who are bashing had the time to pick the brains of any brand's service adviser, you'll find that every brand has their problems. Even Honda, Toyota, Lexus, and KUBOTA.
HHR
Platinum Member
Since when did manufacturers tie the airbags to the ignition switch? Back in the 90s, all the Ford vehicles had a good sized capacitor built into the airbag module that would provide power to the airbags in the event that a battery cable was severed etc.
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MikePA
Super Moderator
Another scenario could be a Klingon starship is chasing you, they've turned on their tractor beam, your GM vehicle starts to levitate, shaking your vehicle and your keychain, to which you've attached three phasers and a tricorder, and your engine shuts off. You can't maneuver, and poof, you're a prisoner and off to planet Boreth.
Point? No one on TBN knows what the scenarios associated with the accidents were so no one knows if they were recoverable.
And airbags work with the ignition off.
Point? No one on TBN knows what the scenarios associated with the accidents were so no one knows if they were recoverable.
And airbags work with the ignition off.
