Grapple Failure

[CalG]

Now if they made the bottom end grapple "in-de-structable" what would that do to the high end market where they can make a reasonable return on thier efforts.

We have already determined it's NOT the cost of steel that makes the de-lux units cost twice as much.

Perhaps we should boycott all the makers right out of business! They all must cut corners "somewhere", it the nature of business.

There is a story about H. Ford (the chisler that he was) asking his parts department, "what replacement part sold the least?" .
They returned a wheel spindle (or something, makes no matter) H. Ford (the chisler that he was) took the part to his engineers and said. "Make this part lighter!".

I believe H. Ford (the chisler that he was) may have made an offer to his coustomers of "I'll GIVE you the car, if you agree buy all the replacement parts from me!".

Seems normal enough on a free market economy.

Wherever there is the sound of breaking glass, screeching tires, and bending metal.....There is a buck to be made! ;-)

 

[murphy1244]

Now if they made the bottom end grapple "in-de-structable" what would that do to the high end market where they can make a reasonable return on thier efforts.

We have already determined it's NOT the cost of steel that makes the de-lux units cost twice as much.

Perhaps we should boycott all the makers right out of business! They all must cut corners "somewhere", it the nature of business.

There is a story about H. Ford (the chisler that he was) asking his parts department, "what replacement part sold the least?" .
They returned a wheel spindle (or something, makes no matter) H. Ford (the chisler that he was) took the part to his engineers and said. "Make this part lighter!".

I believe H. Ford (the chisler that he was) may have made an offer to his coustomers of "I'll GIVE you the car, if you agree buy all the replacement parts from me!".

Seems normal enough on a free market economy.

Wherever there is the sound of breaking glass, screeching tires, and bending metal.....There is a buck to be made! ;-)

Do you own WildKat or have stock in them? Thou protest too much.

 

[IslandTractor]

Now if they made the bottom end grapple "in-de-structable" what would that do to the high end market where they can make a reasonable return on thier efforts.

We have already determined it's NOT the cost of steel that makes the de-lux units cost twice as much.

Perhaps we should boycott all the makers right out of business! They all must cut corners "somewhere", it the nature of business.

There is a story about H. Ford (the chisler that he was) asking his parts department, "what replacement part sold the least?" .
They returned a wheel spindle (or something, makes no matter) H. Ford (the chisler that he was) took the part to his engineers and said. "Make this part lighter!".

I believe H. Ford (the chisler that he was) may have made an offer to his coustomers of "I'll GIVE you the car, if you agree buy all the replacement parts from me!".

Seems normal enough on a free market economy.

Wherever there is the sound of breaking glass, screeching tires, and bending metal.....There is a buck to be made! ;-)

;

I would take the Henry Ford story another way. It's not that everything needs to be cheapened until it breaks, it is that every part should be built for the amount and degree of service it was designed for and can reasonably be expected to endure. No sense making an engine that will run for a million miles if the sheet metal turns to rust in ten years.

With regard to our grapple gripes, building a grapple with unobtainium so that it weighs only 100lbs but costs a million bucks would be stupid. However, to chintz out on using well proven 1/4' wall thickness top tube by substituting 1/8" to save $40 (I actually wonder if it is even that much unless buying from an internet mail order metal company) is just dumb. It is dumb to begin with but outrageous to continue after previously unheard of failures start occurring regularly and can easily be traced back to the thin wall tubing. It's one thing to get an engineering or fabrication detail wrong but to fail to take corrective action shows that the company really just doesn't value quality and that it is willing to cheat their customers by delivering a second rate product.

We had this discussion here two years ago. That WildKat continues to use the thin gauge tubing after clearly being made aware of the problems associated with that material is very telling. It tells me they don't value quality. No decent manufacturer would put their name on a POS just to have something at a particular price point. Well, maybe HF would but that proves the point. WildKat seems to be happy leading the charge to the bottom. WRLong would never sell such a grapple. I'm sure there are other manufacturers who would not make such a stupid material substitution that threatened their reputation either. I haven't ever had communication with WildKat so I am basing my thoughts on what has been reported here recently and back in 2012 when I also participated in essentially the same debate. Indeed, I drilled a hole in my Millonzi tubing just to do an accurate measurement of the wall thickness (1/4").

I'd hate to see any more TBN members burned by this substandard top tube issue. It seems to me ridiculous that we would have to ask but I would strongly advise anyone purchasing any grapple to specifically ask about the wall thickness of tubing and pipe used in grapple construction. I wouldn't buy a grapple made of mild steel if there was any part other than a cylinder shield that was made with mild steel tubing/pipe with wall thickness less than 1/4" thick. I certainly would not buy any Wildkat grapple where this standard was not met and I'd ask the question of any alternative supplier too. And, I wouldn't accept a salesman's word. Get it from the fabricators or owner or have them send you a pdf of their materials list.

 

[CalG]

I see that WildKat offers "more substantial" grapples. Not only this "loss leader, home owners, compete with Northern Tool , chicom special", version.

You get what you pay for!


Expectations are the origin of All disappointments

 

[Red Horse]

Want to see what a real log/stone grapple looks like for around $1600?
Here's what I have. I've used it to do things none of the rake type or bucket 4-n-none grapples could do. Not knocking other styles, but it you want something truly heavy duty that is designed to actually do the work- this is it, and it's only 354#s to boot.
It doesn't try to be everything at once, and not succeed at being good at none of it's appointed tasks- rather it aims to do one thing well and succeeds masterfully at doing it's intended job: lifting logs/boulders, etc. without bending tines or breaking flimsy under-engineered metal fabrication by fly by night manufacturers who have plenty of excuses and no real talent for making a quality product.
http://www.treemansupply.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=GR-20

Checked out your 354 lb (1600buck) grapple. Agree -looks very rugged-and IF the only thing I wanted to do was hog rocks out of the ground, might be a good choice. But, could I take this in the woods and bring out a significant lift of assorted size firewood? Don't think so. Could I grub out a significant area of thick underbrush with minimal numbers of passes? Don't think so.
could I grab an 8' oak with about a 25-30" butt? Maybe but it sounds like it might be a bit "tippy" in those narrow jaws? Let's face it, its not a 345 Cat with a thumb.

No doubt looks very well made for its intended primary purpose- but again, I'll put the 600 bucks in the bank and IMO, have greater flexibility with my "POS" Wildkat.

And again-if you go back to my original post, you will note I broke my Wildkat doing something your grapple would excel at- pulling a boulder out of the ground-but to each his own- I'm happy with the flexibility and low price-which if I use my head, will not bite me in the butt again.

 

[94BULLITT]

I wonder if wildkat realizes that a lot of there business comes from TBN and by them not correcting this issue with their grapple is hurting their business.

 

[TomSeller]

I wonder if wildkat realizes that a lot of there business comes from TBN and by them not correcting this issue with their grapple is hurting their business.

If Wildkat cared they would post on TBN and resolve issues like other manufactures do. Like Titan, they seem to get enough business to stay afloat in spite of customer complaints. I have a heavy duty Wildkat model and I am happy with it, but I will not defend their choice of 1/8" tubing on the Econo model.

 

[Coyote machine]

Checked out your 354 lb (1600buck) grapple. Agree -looks very rugged-and IF the only thing I wanted to do was hog rocks out of the ground, might be a good choice. But, could I take this in the woods and bring out a significant lift of assorted size firewood? Don't think so. Could I grub out a significant area of thick underbrush with minimal numbers of passes? Don't think so.
could I grab an 8' oak with about a 25-30" butt? Maybe but it sounds like it might be a bit "tippy" in those narrow jaws? Let's face it, its not a 345 Cat with a thumb.

No doubt looks very well made for its intended primary purpose- but again, I'll put the 600 bucks in the bank and IMO, have greater flexibility with my "POS" Wildkat.

And again-if you go back to my original post, you will note I broke my Wildkat doing something your grapple would excel at- pulling a boulder out of the ground-but to each his own- I'm happy with the flexibility and low price-which if I use my head, will not bite me in the butt again.

I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of my post. I'm saying that the construction of my Igland Gr-20 Forestry grapple is heavy duty and has no breakage issues due to using 3/8" or thicker construction materials. They're made in Finland, and cost accordingly. A lot of what you assume would not work with the GR-20 is possible by adding an expanded metal screen over the lower jaw, as needed. And I've lifted all kinds of and shapes and sizes of stumps, 30+-40' long entire tree trunks, etc.
If I were you, I'd definitely let wildkat know your sense of disappointment/anger over their treatment of your situation, and tell them specifically what you dislike about what you were told on the phone. You owe it to yourself for what you paid them for what you expected, and for what you now feel you were sold for your money spent.

I'll give you an example of my own recent dealings with a company I spent a ton of money with, and had piss poor results in terms of service over a number of years. In 2009 I bought all brand new Viking pro line appliances for our new addition of kitchen/dining room/ mud room. All stainless steel. First the dishwasher broke, cost $750+ off the one year warranty. Then the beverage cooler, then the refrigerator. We worked out an agreement on the fridge, but I paid the $150 plus labor for a freezer heater so it would stop pouring water on the floor when it felt like it. It started doing it again this past summer/fall. I told them I would pay no more and to come fix it. They reluctantly did. While they were to come fix it the beverage cooler died. They told me $450 minimum plus labor. I told them no way. We went around until this past month they called and offered me a new one in exchange for the old one. Deal, done. Cost of new SS bev center? $2900! Free. Sometimes it takes forever but worthwhile taking the company to task for making cheap junk and resting on their prior good reputation. Since lots of people buy grapples from advice from TBN, it seems in everyone's best interest for you to make your case to wildkat, IMHO.
Don't let up, write and email and call and take names and politely demand better service and product improvements.
Good luck, and post results.

 

[Red Horse]

I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of my post. I'm saying that the construction of my Igland Gr-20 Forestry grapple is heavy duty and has no breakage issues due to using 3/8" or thicker construction materials. They're made in Finland, and cost accordingly. A lot of what you assume would not work with the GR-20 is possible by adding an expanded metal screen over the lower jaw, as needed. And I've lifted all kinds of and shapes and sizes of stumps, 30+-40' long entire tree trunks, etc.
If I were you, I'd definitely let wildkat know your sense of disappointment/anger over their treatment of your situation, and tell them specifically what you dislike about what you were told on the phone. You owe it to yourself for what you paid them for what you expected, and for what you now feel you were sold for your money spent.

I'll give you an example of my own recent dealings with a company I spent a ton of money with, and had piss poor results in terms of service over a number of years. In 2009 I bought all brand new Viking pro line appliances for our new addition of kitchen/dining room/ mud room. All stainless steel. First the dishwasher broke, cost $750+ off the one year warranty. Then the beverage cooler, then the refrigerator. We worked out an agreement on the fridge, but I paid the $150 plus labor for a freezer heater so it would stop pouring water on the floor when it felt like it. It started doing it again this past summer/fall. I told them I would pay no more and to come fix it. They reluctantly did. While they were to come fix it the beverage cooler died. They told me $450 minimum plus labor. I told them no way. We went around until this past month they called and offered me a new one in exchange for the old one. Deal, done. Cost of new SS bev center? $2900! Free. Sometimes it takes forever but worthwhile taking the company to task for making cheap junk and resting on their prior good reputation. Since lots of people buy grapples from advice from TBN, it seems in everyone's best interest for you to make your case to wildkat, IMHO.
Don't let up, write and email and call and take names and politely demand better service and product improvements.
Good luck, and post results.

Coyote-Thx for response- for the record, I have no issue with Wildkat-see my original post on page 5. I bought mine with the knowledge that at HALF the price of comparable size units, this thing might need some help from my Millermatic from time to time as well as me using my head as to just what I did with it.

And I am like you with your Viking experience-had I paid twice the money for the same tool, I can assure you I would be the customer from ****! But I didn't-and my abuse resulted in the failure, and I fixed it.

Finland huh? I think the Fins are good at wood processing equipment. I have a Valpey chipper-I don't think they are imported into US anymore but this thing is BUILT!

 

[Coyote machine]

Red Horse, I heard you when you posted about not having a problem with wildkat; and I get it that you were/are willing to take the risk of buying the not top of the line/cost item, with the knowledge that it might mean you have to do in field upgrades on occasion.. What I find somewhat incomprehensible is why companies cut corners to attempt to make more money per piece, when if they spent the minimal amount extra to make a slightly better product they would sell way more pieces and likely survive longer by having a built in positive referral service like TBN working for them?!:duh: