Grid-tied solar

[cmore]

I can see how you would enjoy analyzing a solar system. Probably have to add 4 panels just to run all the sensors and monitors :laughing:

Seriously though, energy savings through insulation and high-efficiency are the low hanging fruit that should come first. I think you are on the right track. If more people looked at their particular situation with the goal of reducing energy consumption, the cumulative effect would be huge.

:thumbsup:

 

[dave1949]

Meburdick, the way I understood Dave1949's response a few posts ago, was he sees it as a cause. If I understood that correctly, than arguing about payback is less relevant ...

I give money to charitable organizations, in a large % basis, compared to my income. I do that, because I believe in the "causes"... There is no financial payback to me, whatsoever. On a spreadsheet level, donating to charity is financially stupid to do.

Dave1949 believes he is helping the planet. I think he sees it as a form of charity, however, he thinks he may potentially recoup all of his "donation" and possibly even make/save money over time.

Dave1949, if I'm misinterpreting what u said, please correct me.

That's about right.
I think the conflict for some is that when tax subsidies are involved, they are "forced" to participate in my cause willingly or otherwise. The only consolation I can offer is solar systems clean the air for everybody regardless of whose roof they sit on.

 

[EE_Bota]

I can see how you would enjoy analyzing a solar system. Probably have to add 4 panels just to run all the sensors and monitors :laughing:

Seriously though, energy savings through insulation and high-efficiency are the low hanging fruit that should come first. I think you are on the right track. If more people looked at their particular situation with the goal of reducing energy consumption, the cumulative effect would be huge.

I have seen many a person talk about solar here, but I never see any mention of reactive power. I need to study reactive power flow through solar systems and the grid tie to better understand costs and future costs that may be imposed.
This link is to a PDF that discusses roughly my interests.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...sg=AFQjCNGaQJ5mCVSn74whzBNe8DEX49Nn8g&cad=rja

It wouldn't hold me back though, and I could do my analysis with my TI calculator which comes with a mechanical and electrical engineering "pack." I never would have guessed I would be using a 68000 based battery powered calculator, but it runs a long time on a set of batteries (4 AA's.)

 

[meburdick]

That is comparing apples to apple pie. A cord of wood goes from $150 to $300.

In order to FAIRLY compare wood heat versus most other methods one should include human interaction such as labor required to get the fuel to change into heat and the "going" cost of the fuel, not what one individual pays for it.

I've got 3 houses and 4 methods of heating.

1. When I want to heat with the natural gas heater I just ensure the pipeline is still working and turn the thermostat.
2. When I want to heat with the electric heater I ensure the electricity is still working and turn the thermostat.
3. When I want to heat with the LPG gas heater I call the delivery man and turn the thermostat.
4. When I want to heat with the woodstove or fireplace I have to ensure the wood is nearby, carry it in and feed the unit.

SWMBO wanted a pellet heater at one time. Until I reminded her that if she was alone she'd be the one carrying the pellets.

My costs for fuels 1 thru 3 is the market rate, fuel 4, wood, is "FREE" to me. I make it as a byproduct of my small sawmill and cleaning up the lots. But even "FREE" requires a bunch of effort.

Since you ((meburdick) cut, split, transport and stack a cord of wood for about $10 a cord (6 cords with an out of pocket price of $100, plus $50 in fuel) and then gets it inside, you must have a greatly more efficient way of doing it than I have found.

I've enough trees on my land I could keep you (meburdick) busy forever at $10/cord.

A better comparison would be to price your 6 cords of wood at market rate. Connecticut Firewood Service sells it for $230/cord in Connecticut. Thus your 6 cords OUTSIDE would be worth $1380, and that's still not in the burner. So add in your labor to get it to the insert.

I agree there is a large savings, but to compare logs to oil is just not fair.

And if you looked into wood gasification you would see how easy it would be to run a light bulb from wood. WoodGasifier News - Wood Gasifier Generator

Unless I have a typo in a post somewhere, the cost I cited for wood was $100 per cord. Your link for wood is for that which is cut, split, and seasoned - that's not how I buy my wood. And, "market rate" for log length firewood is $100 per cord as I stated. I've also outline my actual costs, minus labor. It will take me a couple of hours per cord to split and stack, but that's a way that I can invest without actual dollars.

 

[dave1949]

I have seen many a person talk about solar here, but I never see any mention of reactive power. I need to study reactive power flow through solar systems and the grid tie to better understand costs and future costs that may be imposed.
This link is to a PDF that discusses roughly my interests.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...sg=AFQjCNGaQJ5mCVSn74whzBNe8DEX49Nn8g&cad=rja

It wouldn't hold me back though, and I could do my analysis with my TI calculator which comes with a mechanical and electrical engineering "pack." I never would have guessed I would be using a 68000 based battery powered calculator, but it runs a long time on a set of batteries (4 AA's.)

You are making my head hurt . In a small nutshell, is reactive power flow the electrical result of rapid changes in grid demand and grid supply, and this produces voltage instability?

It's difficult to visualize grid behavior. My limited understanding is that it is an "on demand" operation managed to match supply to consumption through forecasting based on historical records and predicted weather conditions. Over a regional grid, the number of consumers is large enough that large changes in their individual demands are very small in relation to the total grid or sub-grid demand.

On the generating side, the plant schedules for planned downtime are coordinated across the grid, some plants are paid to be in "standby" mode to cover unexpected downtime due to equipment failures.

Until wind turbines and such came along with outputs that can vary considerably on an hourly basis, the required granularity of the generation scheduling could be quite large.

The ISO New England grid which covers most of six states, makes an exchange market for $10+ billion worth of power buying and selling annually. ISO-NE doesn't own any generating facilities. They predict short and long-term demand, coordinate power plant and distribution operations and future capacity, and manage the buyer-seller exchange market.

That's about all I know about grids. I learned that in researching info about utility-scale wind turbines. I understand the definition of a grid, but nothing about how it works under the covers.

On a sad note, the six states that participate in the ISO-NE grid all have their own definition of what generating sources qualify for renewable energy credits, what those credits are worth and what may be done with them. I am developing a theory that the complexity of our world is stretching the limits of some of our governing methods. I am pretty sure there are number of politicians who believe plugging a "smart meter" into every meter socket constitutes having a "smart grid."

 

[sdkubota]

Your home voltages will vary throughout the day as a result of electric producers meeting instant demands on the grid. Most light bulbs burn out because the home voltages exceed 110v and burn out the bulb filiment.

 

[aczlan]

Your home voltages will vary throughout the day as a result of electric producers meeting instant demands on the grid. Most light bulbs burn out because the home voltages exceed 110v and burn out the bulb filiment.

Most bulbs are rated for 120V and you can easily get ones rated for 130v.

Aaron Z

 

[sdkubota]

Most bulbs are rated for 120V and you can easily get ones rated for 130v.

Aaron Z

I always purchase the 130v bulbs and they last much, much longer. They perform even better then rough service bulbs at a fraction of the price. Learned that from electricians that wired my home.:thumbsup:

 

[Tollster]

A solar grid is an excellent way to maintain equity in your home. If you can combine various heating and cooling costs, you can use the one that’s cheapest, and most efficient. I have been looking at wind turbines as well. As you say, you will not be held hostage to energy prices any longer. The more interest in solar power the more refined in the development it will become. Also be aware there may be large write off for taxes in your area, so research the state and federal grants, and tax incentives prior to construction, and verify it with the builder.
The cost continues to fall for solar arrays, I have heard they should be able to place the provolative material into roofing tiles within the next couple years. I have also seen some nice articles on water heating and garge heating in Mother earth news that really help keep cost down.
Remember,its your money, the idea is to keep it to yourself.

 

[newbury]

Unless I have a typo in a post somewhere, the cost I cited for wood was $100 per cord. Your link for wood is for that which is cut, split, and seasoned - that's not how I buy my wood. And, "market rate" for log length firewood is $100 per cord as I stated. I've also outline my actual costs, minus labor. It will take me a couple of hours per cord to split and stack, but that's a way that I can invest without actual dollars.

No, I think we are in agreement. When I wrote "6 cords with an out of pocket price of $100" I meant $100/cord.
The link was the first one that turned up when I googled firewood prices in Connecticut. In Mississippi prices are more like $150 to $175/cord.

Your math and prices:
6 cords of wood in log lengths @ $100/cord
other costs $50
Total out of pocket cost about $650.
You wrote

Subtract out the $700 I spend for the wood, and you're just shy of $3,000 every heating season.

Indicating that the couple of hours per cord to split and stack was worth $50 for 6 cords ($700 minus $650). So your time is worth about $4.50/hr, and includes a hefty investment in equipment.

Even down here in Mississippi it's hard to get someone to cut logs, split the wood and stack it for $10/hr, much less $4.50/hour. Especially when they provide their own equipment!

With oil, natural gas, LPG, electricity, etc. most people do not include allowance for extra work on their part to get it to the heating system, because there is very little extra work.

Those of us that burn wood tend to ignore that extra work, hey, it's exercise. But if for example you damage your foot and can't walk the difference between flipping the switch and hauling wood to the fire becomes real evident real fast. As does the 2 hours per cord to cut, split, and stack.

Wood definitely has it's place in the home energy cycle if you have an easy inexpensive source. That's why I'm investigating gasification.

I've got trees I have to get rid of, they are in the way. So I make them into lumber, then I still have a bunch of waste left over, I want to make that into heat and maybe electricity. But it is a lot of work compared to flipping a switch and using a PV system.