Grid-tied solar

[ultrarunner]

Just about every car manufacturer in the world has a presence here in the valley...

Ford has more than 125 employees at the Palo Alto research and design facility... lots of buzz on electrics, navigation and self driving vehicles...

 

[MossRoad]

Solar power in Indiana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Solar power in Indiana has been growing in recent years due to new technological improvements and a variety of regulatory actions and financial incentives, particularly a 30% federal tax credit, available through 2016, for any size project.[1]
An estimated 18% of electricity in Indiana could be provided by rooftop solar panels.[2] In 2011, Indiana's largest solar installation was the six acre array located on the roof of the Maj. Gen. Emmett J. Bean Federal Center in Lawrence, Indiana, capable of generating a peak power of over 2 MW.[3]
A 17.5MW plant built at the Indianapolis airport in 2013 was the largest airport solar farm in the U.S.[4] A 9MW solar farm was built at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway in 2014.[5] Two more are planned, one near Peru, Indiana and a second one sited at the Indianapolis airport.[6] The 3.2MW Rockville Solar II is the largest solar roof installation in the state.[7]

Indiana | SEIA

Facts on the Indiana Solar Industry

There are currently more than 62 solar companies at work throughout the value chain in Indiana, employing 1,500 people.
In 2013, Indiana installed 54 MW of solar electric capacity, ranking it 11th nationally.
The 88 MW of solar energy currently installed in Indiana ranks the state 19th in the country in installed solar capacity. There is enough solar energy installed in the state to power 9,000 homes.
In 2013, $112 million was invested in Indiana to install solar for home, business and utility use.
The price to install solar on homes and businesses has dropped steadily across the country by 8% from last year and 34% from 2010.

Solar power in Michigan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 2002, Stanford R. Ovshinsky built a factory in Auburn Hills, Michigan to build low cost Uni-Solar panels using amorphous semiconductors that generate power in diffuse light.[1] Uni-Solar became the second largest manufacturer of thin film solar cells, after First Solar, and a developer of solar shingles before going bankrupt in 2012.[2][3] Michigan was ranked 14th among U.S. states for solar jobs in 2013.[4]
In July 2012, Michigan's largest rooftop array, 977.6 kW, was installed in Canton on the IKEA store.[5] Ford Motor Company and DTE Energy plan to build the largest solar plant in the state, a 1.04MW solar car port at Ford's world headquarters in Dearborn, Michigan.[6] Construction was scheduled to begin September 2014. The city of Ann Arbor announced plans to build a 1MW solar farm at the city airport in 2015.[7] The Ikea store announced an expansion of its existing array in 2015 to bring it to 1.2MW.[8]

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Solar is alive and well in your area. Check this site and see that Indiana and Michigan are in the ballpark with much of the US.
Average Annual Sunshine by USA State - Current Results

The proposed project is looking to be constructed in five different locations and as with wind projects the most favorable locations will be used. I think you're a bit negative on solar. The closest city to me has 46% annual sunshine and the cities in Michigan/Indiana show 51/55/ respectively and I have used mostly solar for 20 years.

Loren

I'm not negative on solar. Up here in South Bend (northwest Indiana and southwest lower Michigan), we have a very distinct micro climate. You should study it more.

 

[Loren49]

I'm not negative on solar. Up here in South Bend (northwest Indiana and southwest lower Michigan), we have a very distinct micro climate. You should study it more.

I shouldn't have said that. I was generalizing because of your statements on that particular project. I apologize for that.

It seems that investors would study those things. Do you have information that indicates a significantly different level of sunshine? Even with incentives an installation will only be profitable if it produces enough electricity. I am also in an area that has significant lake effect for a Great Lake and solar seems to be doing ok .

Loren

 

[Redneck in training]

May be similar to this:
Where the Energy Goes: Gasoline Vehicles

Only about 14%?0% of the energy from the fuel you put in a conventional vehicle is used to move it down the road, depending on the drive cycle.

Where the Energy Goes: Gasoline Vehicles

The point is whether it works financially as far as a business venture and I bet it is a major part of many homeowner's decision. Some decide to go solar just because they think its the thing to do.

If you look at Dave's data you can calculate the actual output vs installed capacity percentage. Its dark half the time everywhere and at less than optimal angle some of the time and overcast to differing degrees. Amazingly it still works enough for many people and the last major spill was sunshine...(my humor for the day)

Loren

Loren

The "right thing to do" works to a degree. If the sacrifice is too big it goes out of window. PV reached a point when the break even point can be reached in only few years at best and just before the end of life of the system at worst. But you can look at it the other way. In example we could have installed geothermal floor heating to save energy to my shop at cost about 25-30K and still buy energy from the utility. Instead we invested 36K (after tax rebate) into PV, lowering energy cost for the whole property. Then we used much cheaper split units to heat and AC the shop. We were able to do a lot of work (95%) DIY resulting in additional saving. It is not the energy cost only you need to consider if the investment makes a sense.

 

[ultrarunner]

Around here homes with solar installs go for a premium...

 

[MossRoad]

I shouldn't have said that. I was generalizing because of your statements on that particular project. I apologize for that.

It seems that investors would study those things. Do you have information that indicates a significantly different level of sunshine? Even with incentives an installation will only be profitable if it produces enough electricity. I am also in an area that has significant lake effect for a Great Lake and solar seems to be doing ok .

Loren

I posted a link to it earlier. We have significant cloud cover from October - March. The energy savings payback would be about 40-50% longer than a sunny location. There were stories when I was a kid that many WWII and cold war suppliers were located in this area due to the cloud cover... it would be harder for the Germans and Russians to see them from above. :laughing: The benefits of this area are deep sandy soils, plenty of fresh water near the surface, moderated climate for fruit production due to the lake, etc... wind is not strong enough for good wind power and sun is not out enough for good solar.

 

[Loren49]

I posted a link to it earlier. We have significant cloud cover from October - March. The energy savings payback would be about 40-50% longer than a sunny location. There were stories when I was a kid that many WWII and cold war suppliers were located in this area due to the cloud cover... it would be harder for the Germans and Russians to see them from above. :laughing: The benefits of this area are deep sandy soils, plenty of fresh water near the surface, moderated climate for fruit production due to the lake, etc... wind is not strong enough for good wind power and sun is not out enough for good solar.

http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data/nsrdb/1961-1990/redbook/atlas/serve.cgi

It looks like we're both in the poorest solar areas in the US. Locally there are a good number of small to medium sized solar installations. My point is that even with the available construction subsidies, the only way that a profit will happen is if an adequate amount of electricity is produced. The proposed project will still require a sizable investment and its hard to believe that these investors did not require good information that it will be profitable. Also note that during the time period (October to March) of greatest cloud cover the area has it shortest daylight and the electrical demands are lower. Over the rest of the year there are the greater hours of sunshine and the higher electrical demand. In my area many installations are on roofs and are covered with snow part of the winter but over the long summer days and with a relatively flat orientation the yearly output is enough.

Loren

 

[aczlan]

In my area many installations are on roofs and are covered with snow part of the winter but over the long summer days and with a relatively flat orientation the yearly output is enough.

I was talking to a town councilman (an engineer) recently about the installation at the town buildings (not far from Lake Ontario) and he said that even on 10-15 degree overcast days, if there is a little bit of the panel peeking out from under the snow, it will clear the whole panel off.

Aaron Z

 

[Loren49]

In my experience they do clear in moderate temperatures but when its -20 F its plenty slow. Many will be blown clear with a good breeze if it is was very cold when it snowed. I've had fixed mounted panels for 25+ years but adjusted them to vertical over the coldest months...very little ice or snow problem. They are fixed east/west but were hinged so I could adjust angle to sun. My current setup is fixed at an angle so I do have a bit more snow issue. I now clear them when needed with a roof scraper (not sure the right name) Actually I have gone south for 2 months the past 2 years so my good son does it!

Loren

Loren

 

[dave1949]

I see NREL has a new pvwatts calculator. PVWatts Calculator It's easy to use and nicer than the older versions. If you are considering solar pv, I would recommend running some test values.

I ran the pvwatts calculator for a 1,000 kw (1 mw) system in South Bend, IN based on a 40 deg. fixed, due south orientation, open rack mount using premium (19% efficiency, standard is 15%) panels. I left everything else at the default values.

pvwatts predicts an annual output of 1,248.8 mwh. If all 88 mw were installed at that location, annual output should average 88 X 1,248.8 mwh = 109,894 mwh.

That should run Mossroad's AC. :laughing:

I ran pvwatts with the same parameters as above (except I added 3 degrees of tilt) for Portland, ME. The result is 1,397.1 mwh per year compared to 1,248.8 mwh per year for South Bend, IN. That is 11.9% less in South Bend than Portland.

Portland models 10.3% higher than Waterville, ME, the location I use for my system. Modeling my system based on Waterville predicts 4.828 mwh/year which comes pretty close to my actual output of 4.984 mwh/year. The 156 kwh difference between the prediction and my actual output amounts to 7 reasonably sunny days per year. The older version of pvwatts that was used to size my system modeled at 4.447 mwh/year. The new version is more accurate but still conservative.

Running pvwatts for South Bend using my system size (4.32 dc kilowatts), standard 15% efficiency panels, 40 degree fixed-angle, roof-mounted, facing due south, the prediction is 5.326 mwh/year compared to my actual output here of 4.984 mwh/year. Using my actual 70 degree mounting angle in South Bend, the prediction is 4.542 mwh/year. Changing my system from 70 to an optimal 45 degree angle predicts 5.264 mwh/year--slightly less than if my system were in South Bend all other things being equal.

Micro-climates and perceptions aside, the numbers say South Bend (probably at the airport) is not appreciably different than my home. pvwatts is thought to be a reasonably accurate tool for solar system sizing. Unless there is something known to be wrong with the weather data or model for South Bend, or you can identify a small micro-climate effect specific to a given site, I think I would trust it.

A pv solar system functions as a very expensive insolation meter in addition to generating power. Remember there are almost infinite graduations between dark and full sun. Not all cloudy or clear days are created equal.