Grid-tied solar

[houstonscott]

New large power plant cost in general several billion USD followed by request for rate increase. It is true that consumer rates increased but at lower pace than without PV (specifically). Large scale wind produces energy at cost close to nuclear or gas burning power plant. Wind is almost exclusively owned by utilities or generators while PV is to large degree owned by the end users. Wind probably increases the rates (as any newly constructed power source) while PV tends to work against rate increase. In example electric rates in Iowa increased in average at rate about 2%/year. Since the rate didn't increase for several years we can expect large jump in near future. In fact Mid American Energy serving IA applied for rate increase last year and it was approved. The rates went up by 145 million for 640 000 customers.

Wind is as much as 10 ten times more expensive as NG or coal, .85 cents a kWh, it's a loser. Large PV has all types of issues too, and on a commercial scale is also a loser. Both their effects on environment and wildlife are devastating. Local use of PV makes sense and will get more popular. HS

 

[Loren49]

Wind is as much as 10 ten times more expensive as NG or coal, .85 cents a kWh, it's a loser. Large PV has all types of issues too, and on a commercial scale is also a loser. Both their effects on environment and wildlife are devastating. Local use of PV makes sense and will get more popular. HS

Your opinions (over simplified and short sighted), but why not start a thread and produce some facts which include all costs - short and long term, pollution, illness, defense to keep FF flowing. How about adding in the cost of fuel for the life of the new power generating facility - for the Windfarm it is $0.00 with no external costs. External cost for 25 years of NG or Coal are $$$$$$. But on a different thread and see how long it survives. This is not the place!

Grid-tied solar, experience, observations, suggestions, new information.

Loren

 

[ultrarunner]

Stanford University is putting 500 million into it's campus solar system and said it will save the University tens of millions of dollars and was actually the less expensive option.

The old campus power plant no longer met environmental standards and the University found it to be cost saving to not replace it.

Powering Stanford

A few weeks back the Chronicle ran this story of Texas investing 500 million in Solar.

Texas Senate approves $500 million for solar power - Houston Chronicle

 

[3930dave]

Stanford University is putting 500 million into it's campus solar system and said it will save the University tens of millions of dollars and was actually the less expensive option.

The old campus power plant no longer met environmental standards and the University found it to be cost saving to not replace it.

Powering Stanford

A few weeks back the Chronicle ran this story of Texas investing 500 million in Solar.

Texas Senate approves $500 million for solar power - Houston Chronicle

A friend was telling me about the big money Walmart is putting into on-site alternative energy generation, as it's about the only remaining area they can squeeze money out of.

There is a collision course here, that Redneck touched on. We saw it here in Ontario, when us peasants did our part, and conserved (well, that, and big manufacturing was closed down) - electricity rates started getting jacked up to compensate. As more and more people de-power from the grid, this trend will escalate, just driven by this one vector of fixed system-maintenance costs.

In certain areas (like ON), we have another problem. There is an ideology at play, focused on driving energy costs sky-high. I don't expect the zealots to back off, until most of us are walking to the food bank to beg for items that do not require refrigeration. Maybe not even then.

I've had a long term interest in building a retirement home that is totally off-grid. If I wasn't already 100% certain of that, they would have had me at "Smart Meter", 5 years ago.

Rgds, D.

 

[ultrarunner]

There was a time not all that long ago when utility rates were calculated differently and there was an absence of extra fees and charges and those that used more had lower rates... cheaper to buy in quantity.

I remember seeing 60 day water bills of $20 that would now cost $200 and with the new penalty rates could be much more.

More and more of the big players... industry and government are putting in 60 to 80% of use gird tied solar....

A Judge just ruled tiered rates to promote conservation is illegal under the law... most utilities in California are only permitted to cover the cost of operation... nothing in the law about punishing those with above average use.

Just about all the schools through community college have put in solar panel car ports in the parking lots... combine this with the huge breakthrough in something as 80% reduction of Watts needed to produce the same quality lumens and alternative energy and conservations are making huge inroads....

 

[Loren49]

There was a time not all that long ago when utility rates were calculated differently and there was an absence of extra fees and charges and those that used more had lower rates... cheaper to buy in quantity.

I remember seeing 60 day water bills of $20 that would now cost $200 and with the new penalty rates could be much more.

More and more of the big players... industry and government are putting in 60 to 80% of use gird tied solar....

A Judge just ruled tiered rates to promote conservation is illegal under the law... most utilities in California are only permitted to cover the cost of operation... nothing in the law about punishing those with above average use.

Just about all the schools through community college have put in solar panel car ports in the parking lots... combine this with the huge breakthrough in something as 80% reduction of Watts needed to produce the same quality lumens and alternative energy and conservations are making huge inroads....

I believe the court ruling was on water rates and was ruled as in conflict with the State Constitution.

California drought: Court rules tiered water rates violate state constitution - San Jose Mercury News

With electricity there is a higher cost of production at certain times and higher demands. If higher rates during peak demand result in a more balanced need there are cost reductions.

It seems that grid-tied systems should be charged a fair fee for using the grid as a storage battery for electricity to be used later. Finding that fair fee is the challenge.

Loren

 

[buickanddeere]

For those thinking at green power is cheaper . Wind is paid 13.5 per KW , natural gas turbines 16.5 cents per KW and solar 39.5 to 80.2 cents per KW when ever they want to operate .Now here is how much nuclear and hydro electric is being paid. Why should green be paid a subsidy when clean nuclear and hydroelectric is paid somewhere between zero and 4 cents ? Sygration Homepage if you won't believe me.

 

[ultrarunner]

I believe the court ruling was on water rates and was ruled as in conflict with the State Constitution.

California drought: Court rules tiered water rates violate state constitution - San Jose Mercury News

With electricity there is a higher cost of production at certain times and higher demands. If higher rates during peak demand result in a more balanced need there are cost reductions.

It seems that grid-tied systems should be charged a fair fee for using the grid as a storage battery for electricity to be used later. Finding that fair fee is the challenge.

Loren

Yes the current case is water and is using a law that applies to all non government owned utilities.

PGE has started a rate change application to eliminate both the highest and lowest tier of the 4 tiers...

 

[MossRoad]

Stanford University is putting 500 million into it's campus solar system and said it will save the University tens of millions

I know what you mean, but its funny to read it incorrectly.... spend 500 to save 10... :laughing:

 

[Redneck in training]

For those thinking at green power is cheaper . Wind is paid 13.5 per KW , natural gas turbines 16.5 cents per KW and solar 39.5 to 80.2 cents per KW when ever they want to operate .Now here is how much nuclear and hydro electric is being paid. Why should green be paid a subsidy when clean nuclear and hydroelectric is paid somewhere between zero and 4 cents ? Sygration Homepage if you won't believe me.

Well, my system produce about 20 - 30% more energy than we consume but we still have electric bill. We get charged 11.5 cent/kWh and get paid 3.5 cent/kWh. No net metering is available to us. In addition the utility cancelled our heating rate (we heat with electricity) adding about 500 USD to our yearly electric cost. ROI depends on particular utility and regulations. If our house would be one county over we would have net metering and the excess generation would easily cover the fixed cost making our electric bill somewhat negative. If we could get 39.5 - 89.2 cent/kWh our PV system would make a ton of money. I would put lights shining on the panels to generate energy at night. ROI calculation is quite complex taking into account mortgage interest tax break, capital gains if the tax rebate for alternative energy is invested etc. One of those days I will sit down and put some effort into it. Anyway what is the ROI on 55000 car?
The problem with fair rate for grid use is that it should apply to all users independent of how much energy they use. In example people who insulate their home and/or heat their house with wood would have to pay for grid usage. Then the wholesale and retail rates would be very close together resulting (my guess) in lot of wasted energy because the energy cost will have much smaller effect on total energy bill.