Grid-tied solar

[houstonscott]

New large power plant cost in general several billion USD followed by request for rate increase. It is true that consumer rates increased but at lower pace than without PV (specifically). Large scale wind produces energy at cost close to nuclear or gas burning power plant. Wind is almost exclusively owned by utilities or generators while PV is to large degree owned by the end users. Wind probably increases the rates (as any newly constructed power source) while PV tends to work against rate increase. In example electric rates in Iowa increased in average at rate about 2%/year. Since the rate didn't increase for several years we can expect large jump in near future. In fact Mid American Energy serving IA applied for rate increase last year and it was approved. The rates went up by 145 million for 640 000 customers.

Wind is as much as 10 ten times more expensive as NG or coal, .85 cents a kWh, it's a loser. Large PV has all types of issues too, and on a commercial scale is also a loser. Both their effects on environment and wildlife are devastating. Local use of PV makes sense and will get more popular. HS

 

[Loren49]

Wind is as much as 10 ten times more expensive as NG or coal, .85 cents a kWh, it's a loser. Large PV has all types of issues too, and on a commercial scale is also a loser. Both their effects on environment and wildlife are devastating. Local use of PV makes sense and will get more popular. HS

Your opinions (over simplified and short sighted), but why not start a thread and produce some facts which include all costs - short and long term, pollution, illness, defense to keep FF flowing. How about adding in the cost of fuel for the life of the new power generating facility - for the Windfarm it is $0.00 with no external costs. External cost for 25 years of NG or Coal are $$$$$$. But on a different thread and see how long it survives. This is not the place!

Grid-tied solar, experience, observations, suggestions, new information.

Loren

 

[ultrarunner]

Stanford University is putting 500 million into it's campus solar system and said it will save the University tens of millions of dollars and was actually the less expensive option.

The old campus power plant no longer met environmental standards and the University found it to be cost saving to not replace it.

Powering Stanford

A few weeks back the Chronicle ran this story of Texas investing 500 million in Solar.

Texas Senate approves $500 million for solar power - Houston Chronicle

 

[3930dave]

Stanford University is putting 500 million into it's campus solar system and said it will save the University tens of millions of dollars and was actually the less expensive option.

The old campus power plant no longer met environmental standards and the University found it to be cost saving to not replace it.

Powering Stanford

A few weeks back the Chronicle ran this story of Texas investing 500 million in Solar.

Texas Senate approves $500 million for solar power - Houston Chronicle

A friend was telling me about the big money Walmart is putting into on-site alternative energy generation, as it's about the only remaining area they can squeeze money out of.

There is a collision course here, that Redneck touched on. We saw it here in Ontario, when us peasants did our part, and conserved (well, that, and big manufacturing was closed down) - electricity rates started getting jacked up to compensate. As more and more people de-power from the grid, this trend will escalate, just driven by this one vector of fixed system-maintenance costs.

In certain areas (like ON), we have another problem. There is an ideology at play, focused on driving energy costs sky-high. I don't expect the zealots to back off, until most of us are walking to the food bank to beg for items that do not require refrigeration. Maybe not even then.

I've had a long term interest in building a retirement home that is totally off-grid. If I wasn't already 100% certain of that, they would have had me at "Smart Meter", 5 years ago.

Rgds, D.

 

[ultrarunner]

There was a time not all that long ago when utility rates were calculated differently and there was an absence of extra fees and charges and those that used more had lower rates... cheaper to buy in quantity.

I remember seeing 60 day water bills of $20 that would now cost $200 and with the new penalty rates could be much more.

More and more of the big players... industry and government are putting in 60 to 80% of use gird tied solar....

A Judge just ruled tiered rates to promote conservation is illegal under the law... most utilities in California are only permitted to cover the cost of operation... nothing in the law about punishing those with above average use.

Just about all the schools through community college have put in solar panel car ports in the parking lots... combine this with the huge breakthrough in something as 80% reduction of Watts needed to produce the same quality lumens and alternative energy and conservations are making huge inroads....

 

[Loren49]

There was a time not all that long ago when utility rates were calculated differently and there was an absence of extra fees and charges and those that used more had lower rates... cheaper to buy in quantity.

I remember seeing 60 day water bills of $20 that would now cost $200 and with the new penalty rates could be much more.

More and more of the big players... industry and government are putting in 60 to 80% of use gird tied solar....

A Judge just ruled tiered rates to promote conservation is illegal under the law... most utilities in California are only permitted to cover the cost of operation... nothing in the law about punishing those with above average use.

Just about all the schools through community college have put in solar panel car ports in the parking lots... combine this with the huge breakthrough in something as 80% reduction of Watts needed to produce the same quality lumens and alternative energy and conservations are making huge inroads....

I believe the court ruling was on water rates and was ruled as in conflict with the State Constitution.

California drought: Court rules tiered water rates violate state constitution - San Jose Mercury News

With electricity there is a higher cost of production at certain times and higher demands. If higher rates during peak demand result in a more balanced need there are cost reductions.

It seems that grid-tied systems should be charged a fair fee for using the grid as a storage battery for electricity to be used later. Finding that fair fee is the challenge.

Loren

 

[buickanddeere]

For those thinking at green power is cheaper . Wind is paid 13.5 per KW , natural gas turbines 16.5 cents per KW and solar 39.5 to 80.2 cents per KW when ever they want to operate .Now here is how much nuclear and hydro electric is being paid. Why should green be paid a subsidy when clean nuclear and hydroelectric is paid somewhere between zero and 4 cents ? Sygration Homepage if you won't believe me.

 

[ultrarunner]

I believe the court ruling was on water rates and was ruled as in conflict with the State Constitution.

California drought: Court rules tiered water rates violate state constitution - San Jose Mercury News

With electricity there is a higher cost of production at certain times and higher demands. If higher rates during peak demand result in a more balanced need there are cost reductions.

It seems that grid-tied systems should be charged a fair fee for using the grid as a storage battery for electricity to be used later. Finding that fair fee is the challenge.

Loren

Yes the current case is water and is using a law that applies to all non government owned utilities.

PGE has started a rate change application to eliminate both the highest and lowest tier of the 4 tiers...

 

[MossRoad]

Stanford University is putting 500 million into it's campus solar system and said it will save the University tens of millions

I know what you mean, but its funny to read it incorrectly.... spend 500 to save 10... :laughing:

 

[Redneck in training]

For those thinking at green power is cheaper . Wind is paid 13.5 per KW , natural gas turbines 16.5 cents per KW and solar 39.5 to 80.2 cents per KW when ever they want to operate .Now here is how much nuclear and hydro electric is being paid. Why should green be paid a subsidy when clean nuclear and hydroelectric is paid somewhere between zero and 4 cents ? Sygration Homepage if you won't believe me.

Well, my system produce about 20 - 30% more energy than we consume but we still have electric bill. We get charged 11.5 cent/kWh and get paid 3.5 cent/kWh. No net metering is available to us. In addition the utility cancelled our heating rate (we heat with electricity) adding about 500 USD to our yearly electric cost. ROI depends on particular utility and regulations. If our house would be one county over we would have net metering and the excess generation would easily cover the fixed cost making our electric bill somewhat negative. If we could get 39.5 - 89.2 cent/kWh our PV system would make a ton of money. I would put lights shining on the panels to generate energy at night. ROI calculation is quite complex taking into account mortgage interest tax break, capital gains if the tax rebate for alternative energy is invested etc. One of those days I will sit down and put some effort into it. Anyway what is the ROI on 55000 car?
The problem with fair rate for grid use is that it should apply to all users independent of how much energy they use. In example people who insulate their home and/or heat their house with wood would have to pay for grid usage. Then the wholesale and retail rates would be very close together resulting (my guess) in lot of wasted energy because the energy cost will have much smaller effect on total energy bill.

 

[Redneck in training]

Stanford University is putting 500 million into it's campus solar system and said it will save the University tens of millions of dollars and was actually the less expensive option.

The old campus power plant no longer met environmental standards and the University found it to be cost saving to not replace it.

Powering Stanford

A few weeks back the Chronicle ran this story of Texas investing 500 million in Solar.

Texas Senate approves $500 million for solar power - Houston Chronicle

Based on number of panels installed I estimate that PV portion of the project will cost less than 100 million.

 

[Redneck in training]

Tesla will announce home and grid scale batteries.
Tesla to announce home and utility-scale battery next week: pv-magazine

 

[3930dave]

Tesla will announce home and grid scale batteries.
Tesla to announce home and utility-scale battery next week: pv-magazine

This may not be the game changer that some people are looking for (near infinite storage capacity, for close to zero dollars), but I think Musk is well on his way to shaking up the energy game.

It's about time.

Rgds, D.

 

[KiwiBro]

Tesla will announce home and grid scale batteries.
Tesla to announce home and utility-scale battery next week: pv-magazine

I have to hand it to Musk and others willing to pony up the mega $ to do these kinds of things when the science behind all alternative options is not mature and a massively disruptive alternative could spell disaster for their investment. Given they have a strategic advantage in that they are controlling to some degree the demand on the gigafactory's output via their EV and SolarCity investments perhaps the risks are less.

But even if alternative storage technology matures to the point someone else can prove today that their new idea is easily able to be commercialised, such technology will still be about 3 or 4 years behind where gigfactory is right now in terms of bringing the product to market having overcome all the product standards and adoption issues. So, perhaps it's not as big a gamble as it sounds.

Or perhaps the game-changing threats to the gigafactory are not just from alternative storage science but also the road to market once proven? Perhaps an alternative could piggyback on existing mass-market production techniques somehow, and as such radically reduce the time and cost from lab to market?

Japan is doing some really interesting (the theoretical storage density being about 40x greater than that of lithium-ion) aluminium-air storage that promises (like all-too-many false dawns in this storage market it seems) to be a serious game-changer:
Fuji Pigment Unveils Aluminium-Air Battery Rechargeable by Refilling Salty or Normal Water -- KAWANISHI, Japan, Jan. 8, 2015 /PRNewswire/ --

And then there is solid state storage that sakti3 is developing although whilst they have had a hard focus on fast and cheap production methods, they seem to have deliberately avoided large scale and EV storage, rather smaller devices like phones and vacuums, etc. Presumably without the same amount of hoops to jump through as the other markets like EV's and home/grid storage that Tesla and SolarCity are targeting:
Sakti

 

[3930dave]

I have to hand it to Musk and others willing to pony up the mega $ to do these kinds of things when the science behind all alternative options is not mature and a massively disruptive alternative could spell disaster for their investment. Given they have a strategic advantage in that they are controlling to some degree the demand on the gigafactory's output via their EV and SolarCity investments perhaps the risks are less.

It's been a while since one individual has been associated with production and vertical integration on this scale. Musk reminds me of Henry Ford in this respect.

EV and grid power obviously have plenty of consumer and safety regs. Even w/o considering those issues, just the enviro regs you'd have to wade through to begin to set up a new industrial plant this size on US soil is enough to cause most corporations to walk away.

Like him or not, it takes somebody as disruptive as Musk to pull this off.

25 years ago the lithium products that we have now would have looked pretty amazing. 10 years from now, some other chemistry will likely be in their place. I welcome the better energy density that will bring.

Rgds, D.

 

[tjcarguy]

Musk might have put a fortune at risk but his forte' seems to be mining gov subsidies --- Trevor

 

[dave1949]

Results for April 2015.

A good April. Above the model but the lowest April so far.


*********************************** Model Prediction ***********************************************
OLD
_______388____412____509_____374____353____308____ 341___383____394____369____283____331____4,447

NEW Waterville, ME
_______273____322____491_____449____417____375____ 438___542____443____408____350____319____4,827

NEW Portland, ME
_______453____486____523_____452____448____409____ 444___464____466____461____351____368____5,325


GENERATION
Year___Jan____Feb____Mar____Apr_____May____Jun____ Jul____Aug____Sep____Oct____Nov____Dec____Total

2012____NA____NA_____NA____NA_____NA_____NA_____NA ___461_____481____378____400____297____NA
2013____440___375____462____487_____375____379____ 377___470_____476____453____414____278____4,986
2014____360___446____577____525_____361____390____ 395___453_____489____380____295____299____4,970
2015____431___456____612____473


Values are AC kilowatt hours.
Model source: NREL PVWatts Calculator

 

[ultrarunner]

The news this morning is California Governor Brown issued an executive order upping/shortening the time requirement for California to have 50% electricity production from renewables...

Don't look for Solar to go away.

 

[ultrarunner]

Follow the money...

So far all the proposals are for grid tied installations...

More of my friends are going 100% off grid... still a very small number... but who knows what the future holds?

Off topic... there will also be new surcharges on electric vehicles...

The two Doctors that have embraced solar 100% charge their Nissan Leaf and Tesla from homegrown Solar and are not happy to say the least...

Many changes ahead for sure... since the phone company plans to get out of the landline business... this leaves the burden of power poles solely to electric companies...

Add the drought to the mix and $100 a month minimum service connect fees to make up for lost water revenue...

Well.. my friends going off grid along the California coastal redwoods might just be right afterall.

 

[Egon]

But there are places that require attachment to the grid.