Group 4 oil?

gsxr1100 · Jan 23, 2005

BINGO. That is all I am saying. My BX, wifes ML series, my Lexus etc never stated break in oil was installed. That is my point.

If it was so important then put it in the manual.

cp1969 · Jan 23, 2005

It's not important whether "I" think the TDI engine is broken in at 5k--VW is the one making the recommendation, not me. Maybe they do think the engine is broken in at 5K, and who would I be to question that?

Acura and VW think there is some positive benefit to leaving the oil alone. Since they designed and built the engines I'm going to make the bold assumption that they didn't add that recommendation just for grins.

gsxr1100 · Jan 23, 2005

too bad they are "recommendations". That does not mean I MUST follow it nor will will deny me anything in the long run.

Since we are talking about diesel tractors, my BX says zero out this. All that will happen is that your Noack Volatility levels will be higher then normal and take longer to set the rings. I would rather do this and have a group 4 and above from hour/day 0.

cowboydoc · Jan 23, 2005

Some people like making this real complicated, or like arguing, or can't differentiate opinion from fact, think their experience applies to everyone else, or whatever. It's real simple. Follow your Owner's Manual. If it says let the oil the factory put in for so many miles/hours, let it in. If it doesn't say anything, do whatever you want. 

Very well said Mike. Much of this is confirmed on the very site that Mike recommended. Here. The guys over there are a diverse lot and most of their opinions differ significantly from Mike's. Most of them also answer questions in a much more open view. I would highly recommend posting oil questions there. There seems to be a "real" wealth of oil knowledge there. Alot of good information from both sides of the fence.

A very interesting point I found out is that synthetics are not really synthetics. Up to a grade V the synthetics are really just refined dino oil.

Some other excellent points from some of the members there are that diesels have routinely run 400-500k on dyno oil with no rebuild. 90% of the trucks by the time they have that high of mileage are junk or wrecked. The point being unless you are going to run an extended drain interval then you are no better off running synthetics over dino oil.

Another point brought up was that Daimer Chrysler routinely pulls oil samples for engine related warranty work. According to the gentleman on this oil site they can determine if the correct oil was used and what type of oil that is. There had been a significant # of synthetic related engine failures. Now it was also mentioned that this could be do to bias as well in using synthetics as a reason to deny warranty info. So I guess it depends on which side you want to believe there. Bottom line is do what is recommended in the manual.

With regard to break-in oil every John Deere tractor is shipped with break-in oil. The manual is very specific about leaving this in. Ford also ships diesels with break-in oil and it is very specific in the manual on this. The site also talks about this and a good majority of them recommended dino oil until 15,000 miles in vehicles.

Anyway you can read this on the site. I actually did learn quite a bit. Most confirmed what I already believed. I do thank you for that excellent link Mike.

gsxr1100 · Jan 23, 2005

( Very well said Mike. Much of this is confirmed on the very site that Mike recommended. Here. The guys over there are a diverse lot and most of their opinions differ significantly from Mike's. Most of them also answer questions in a much more open view. I would highly recommend posting oil questions there. There seems to be a "real" wealth of oil knowledge there. Alot of good information from both sides of the fence. )

So I am not diverse and open to options? I have posted time and time again on showing some data. You have supplied zero.

Also I hope that the “real” was not directed toward me. Please this against TBN policy #1.

( Very interesting point I found out is that synthetics are not really synthetics. Up to a grade V the synthetics are really just refined dino oil. )

hmm it is a lot more then just refined din oil.

( Some other excellent points from some of the members there are that diesels have routinely run 400-500k on dyno oil with no rebuild. 90% of the trucks by the time they have that high of mileage are junk or wrecked. The point being unless you are going to run an extended drain interval then you are no better off
running synthetics over dino oil. )

You posted the same thing 2 days ago on 01/21/05 10:20 AM. Also that is wrong is that a dino oil (lets say group 1) does not protect nearly like a group 4 or group 5. Just look at the test number when used or a un-used same. That add pack in a group 1 is very low. Nothing new here.

( Another point brought up was that Daimer Chrysler routinely pulls oil samples for engine related warranty work. According to the gentleman on this oil site they can determine if the correct oil was used and what type of oil that is. There had been a significant # of synthetic related engine failures. )
They can’t deny you anything if you use ANY oil that passes the proper API spec’s given by the car manufacture. Again, the only way the warrenty would be affected is if the engine failure was directly related to the oil (as I stated the other day).

( Now it was also mentioned that this could be do to bias as well in using synthetics as a reason to deny warranty info. So I guess it depends on which side you want to believe there. Bottom line is do what is recommended in the manual. ). Again with the “recommendations” deal.

( With regard to break-in oil every John Deere tractor is shipped with break-in oil. The manual is very specific about leaving this in. Ford also ships diesels with break-in oil and it is very specific in the manual on this. The site also talks about this and a good majority of them recommended dino oil until 15,000 miles in vehicles. )

Are we not taking about tractor engines? I have the Ford service manual on CD and it has zero out break in oil being installed. This CD, from Ford was for my 7.3 PSD. My BX manuals states zero about this issue.

( Anyway you can read this on the site. I actually did learn quite a bit. Most confirmed what I already believed. I do thank you for that excellent link Mike. ). So what was confirmed? Rotella is a group 3? That has been know for years. I do not believe anything. I go by what the test results show. That is the facts, not beliefs.

cp1969 · Jan 23, 2005

That looks like a very informative site. I'm not sure I will delve as deep into lubrication as that site can probably go, mainly because I haven't had any lubrication woes, but it's nice to bookmark it just in case.

I can go you one up on the longevity issue using dino oil. We could run our trucks up to 30K on dino oil if they had the centrifugal bypass filter; 15K if they didn't. It was an exception to NOT reach 600K prior to doing work to them, other than put in bearings. Many make it to 1 million prior to overhaul.

cowboydoc · Jan 23, 2005

I can go you one up on the longevity issue using dino oil. We could run our trucks up to 30K on dino oil if they had the centrifugal bypass filter; 15K if they didn't. It was an exception to NOT reach 600K prior to doing work to them, other than put in bearings. Many make it to 1 million prior to overhaul. 

Yep I agree with you 100% cp1969. We have several older ford diesels that have had nothing but dino oil changed every 3-6k with over 500k on them.

Ken_CT · Jan 25, 2005

I went shopping for oil today at an auto parts store that sells Redline Synthetic Oils. That stuff is expensive! Almost $8 for a quart. They had 5 different weights there, but as usual, they didn't carry the one I was looking for, the 15W-40 Diesel oil. On every weight container of Redline that they carried it stated "Not for break-in of engines-allow 3000 miles". It doesn't matter to me as this is for the 100 hour change and I'm at 80 hours now. Will probably hit 100 by the spring with all this snow /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

gsxr1100 · Jan 25, 2005

That is why I use Amsoil 15w-40 (grp 4/5) for about $18 per gallon. Just remember most of the labels on equipment are to keep them from getting sued from every moron out there. I installed Amsoil on my BX22 at hour 0.1 since the manual stated zero about break-in.

Every new engine I get, has a group 4 or 5 installed from the minute it is in the driveway. So far in over 10 years, no problems and oil tests are mint. I will take a higher Noack Volatility rating and slower ring seating over higher wear anyday.

Also that price for Redline ($8) is the norm for a top of the line oil. This is not Walmart oil my friend.

Z71 · Feb 10, 2005

From Mobil 1

Myth:
You should break in your engine with conventional oil, then switch to a synthetic oil like Mobil 1.

Reality:
You can start using Mobil 1 with SuperSyn Technology in new vehicles at any time, even in brand new vehicles. In fact, Mobil 1 with SuperSyn Technology is original equipment (it is installed at the factory) in:

* Aston Martin
* Bentley Amage and Bentley GT
* Cadillac CTS, XLR, SRX and STS
* Chevrolet Corvette
* Dodge Viper
* Mercedes-Benz AMG vehicles
* Mercedes SLR
* Mitsubishi EVO
* Pontiac GTO
* All Porsche vehicles

One of the myths that surrounds synthetic oils is that new engines require a break-in period with conventional oil. The fact is, current engine manufacturing technology does not require this break-in period. As indicated by the decisions of the engineers who design the high-performance cars listed above, Mobil 1 can be used starting the day you drive the car off the showroom floor. )

( Another point brought up was that Daimer Chrysler routinely pulls oil samples for engine related warranty work. According to the gentleman on this oil site they can determine if the correct oil was used and what type of oil that is. There had been a significant # of synthetic related engine failures. Now it was also mentioned that this could be do to bias as well in using synthetics as a reason to deny warranty info. So I guess it depends on which side you want to believe there. Bottom line is do what is recommended in the manual. )

I doubt this is true, these are stoires made up by the anti-synthetic stuck in the 3000 mile oil change time warp naysayers. (I dare say, that if you get po'd by that statement, there must be a lot of true in it) .I know a service manager for DC dealer and this guy is a fanatic Amsoil user, in all his DC vehicles his snow-cats, boat etc. I am going to ask him about this oil sampling, he has neve mentioned this to me.

I asked one of the testing labs that sponsors BITOG forum and he says it nearly impossible to tell what brand of oil or if its synthetic in a used oil sample. They can make a educated guess but its hard to tell with some once they have been used.