Tractor Sizing GUIDE: Shopping/Sizing A Tractor (Development version)

[daugen]

I've been enjoying this thread because I did exactly what Jeff is trying to prevent, I bought the highest hp L Kubota model when I would have been much better served with
a similar or even lower hp M model.

What I call "real" farmers pull heavy planters, disc harrows, and heavy crop wagons. Newbies don't usually I think it is fair to say.
Newbies are either small hobby farmers and often us retirees who are glad to get away from a mouse and get into the dirt.
And for sure newbies include a great number of folks who just bought their dream house with some acreage.

I think there would be less resistance to this Jeff if you brought this up in a series of What is Most Important?
Assuming needs analysis is done, and that's the big question here, particularly if one has never done this before.
Having pulled a disc with a 2wd tractor and enjoyed the balance of tire slip vs depth of tillage, I absolutely agree weight is the number
one consideration, all other things being equal. It's those all other things folks are having problems with.
There are a huge number of 2wd tractors around here, but many are utility size. County mow tractors usually 2wd. I know, I pull them out of ditches...

Jeff is trying to ring the bell to pay attention to weight, to pay more attention to weight. I find that message a good one.
Too bad there isn't an industry agreed upon "grip factor". I have tractors with turf, R4 and R1 tires.
Surprising how much grip turf tires have on a 4wd tractor, but forgeddaboutit in the mud or wet.

 

[jeff9366]

SUGGESTIONS WELCOME:

REVISION​

Safe hillside operation demands more tractor weight than level land operation. Tractors optimized for hill work have liquid installed in the rear tires, rather than air. Loaded tires are filled to 75% capacity with liquid, which increases tractor weight low down ~~600 pounds to 800 pounds~~ for two loaded rear tires. Heavier rear tires lower the tractor's center-of-gravity, making the tractor more stable and increasing rollover resistance.



Safe hillside operation requires four wheel drive (4-WD). Tractors have brakes only on the rear wheels. When going down hill, weight distribution shifts forward, decreasing rear tire grip. With 4-WD engaged tractor feigns four wheel braking. Without 4-WD engaged, on a steep slope, an uncontrolled descent may occur.

Heavier tractors have adjustable rear wheel spreads; wide rear wheel spreads reduce tractor lateral instability.

ORIGINAL​

Safe hillside operation demands more tractor weight than flat land operation and requires four wheel drive (4-WD). Greater mass of heavy-chassis tractors increases tractor stability when transporting loads in the FEL bucket, the most rollover prone of routine tractor tasks. Heavier tractors have adjustable rear wheel spreads; wide rear wheel spreads reduce tractor lateral instability.

 

[jeff9366]

Every tractor brand includes a model in the 2,600 pound to 2,900 pound (bare tractor) range with 100 cubic inch/24 horsepower engine. Tractors under 25-horsepower are exempt from the stringent, Tier IV emission controls which abruptly increase a tractor's cost about $3,000 above the 25-horsepower demarcation. These compact tractors, relatively heavy for 25-horsepower, are very capable on level ground.



Optimizing for work on hillsides most would "load" the rear tires to lower tractor center-of-gravity, adding 450 (+/-) pounds to tractor weight. Carrying an implement, of which a 850 pound Backhoe would be the heaviest example, 25-horsepower will not be enough for hillside work in some cases. There is only so much 25-horsepower can do.

Kubota L2501/HST = 2,623 bare tractor weight + LA525 FEL 820 pounds (est.) + Loaded Tires 450 pounds = 3,893 pounds pounds (without implement)

3,893 pounds / 24.8 horsepower = 157 pounds/horsepower (without implement)

 

[majorwager]

If I had no clue concerning tractor operation, I would be overwhelmed w/ some of jeff's advice. Not that it is invalid, but that it is difficult to comprehend w/o experience. I have read many threads where jeff has offered buying advice, and the response from the op is "thanks, I think".

The point is thus. First, look at some various tractors and speak to some dealers. Very rural folks may lack, or have limited brand options. It is after that point, then some of the instructional material may make sense.

Analogy:
I took single engine flying lessons. Several private pilots attempted to "explain" how to operate an airplane. I just nodded in concert,
remembered VERY little of those explations. Flying and tractor operation are different, but stay w/ me.

It wasn't untill I took a few lessons, that the mechanics of flying made sense.

So jeff throws all this well intentioned information at prospective owners, much of it simply confuses, and is not retained.

This theory I repeat, is that tractor purchasing need not be rocket science. Visit the product, weigh sales rep advice, then rewiew some TBN finer points to identify specific needs.

We are treating these folks as if they are incompetent. Many have purchased several homes, bought multiple automobiles, lived on the planet a while and survived. How did they arrive at a point where they have disposable income for a 30-50 $$ thousand dollar toy in many cases!!!

So let's first give them a little credit for intelligence. Some will make errors, TBN motherhood can Not, will Not prevent that.

Actually if jeff could incorporate a walk around video, that would likely be more helpful.

I am partial to the Messick purchasing videos, and would suggest folks watch them. Would not be surprised if folks who pretend to "know nothing" AKA Sgt. Schultz, know much more than they acknowledge.

EDIT: Can't resist, Post 112 mentions "uncontrolled decent", when this occurs in my world, I buckle up, pull back on the yoke, contact the tower w/ mayday.
tractor rolling wildly down a hill, I would label that a little differently.

 

[majorwager]

Daugen,
Curious about a remark. When stating you bought highest hp model, are you referring to the 5740? What tasks are performed where tractor is too large? As for the M series, it would be even larger in stature, and the smallest model only a few less hp than 5740, if at all, since gear tractors retain more PTO hp. My MX will substitute for the 28 hp ford. In a very wet spring, both will damage improved landscaped surfaces.

Just having difficulty reconciling just how you were damaged w/ a 5740 purchase? M series carries more weight, even w/ cab factored?

If you purchased an M5-091 for yard work, the position would be more logical. What am I missing?

 

[daugen]

Daugen,
Curious about a remark. When stating you bought highest hp model, are you referring to the 5740? What tasks are performed where tractor is too large? As for the M series, it would be even larger in stature, and the smallest model only a few less hp than 5740, if at all, since gear tractors retain more PTO hp. My MX will substitute for the 28 hp ford. In a very wet spring, both will damage improved landscaped surfaces.

Just having difficulty reconciling just how you were damaged w/ a 5740 purchase? M series carries more weight, even w/ cab factored?

If you purchased an M5-091 for yard work, the position would be more logical. What am I missing?

nothing, you are right on, just backwards in understanding me. I should have bought a larger frame tractor with more weight,
I constantly remind myself, you should have bought an M. Not the other way around.

And I drool over an M5, or a JD 5M (gosh, that couldn't be a coincidence could it? )

What I have been let down on with my Kubota is the FEL capability. I have always wanted more lift.
Problem is you take away the big cab and look at the tractor and realize this is a two ton tractor, not three or four ton, to begin with.

To answer your one question as specifically as I can, I can't use my L5740 easily in the woods, which I have lots of, and I can't use it in row crop work following my
Super A, too wide. Otherwise? Yes please Santa I'll take an M5 for Christmas. I don't bale hay or do "real farming" so a lot more horsepower accomplishes nothing for me
unless it brings stronger hydraulics. I like to pick up heavy trees with my HD grapple and the L just doesn't cut it for me. I had never bought a tractor with a FEL
before so this was a learning experience for me.
I thought I was buying big enough because I bought the highest hp version of the L, what I meant to say earlier is I should have bought a heavier, larger frame tractor
based on the last five years experience with how I use them.

 

[daugen]

Majorwager, I think you are being a little hard on Jeff. I love his precision, am guessing a professor technical
writer in another life, and surely a man who wants to get it right....

how about if this was called, instead, a Beginner's Guide To Tractor Selection?
then no one would be insulted.
I own four tractors and I'm not insulted...it may not bring anything new to the plate to me though, at this point in my experience level,
and therefore not be helpful.

Let's give Jeff credit too for just trying to be helpful and clearly his intent is not to write a guide
for professional farmers.
Here's the bottom line. I wish I had read Jeff's information six years ago before I chose which model Kubota I was buying.

Messicks videos are wonderful. Lot of us wish we had a dealer that good nearby.

 

[jeff9366]

REVISION​

Safe hillside operation demands more tractor weight than level land operation. Tractors optimized for hill work have liquid installed in the rear tires rather than air. "Loaded" tires are filled 75% to capacity with liquid, which lowers the tractor's center-of-gravity, making a tractor more stable and increasing rollover resistance.

Loading two compact tractor rear tires will increase weight 300 pounds to 800 pounds over weight of same two tires inflated with air.

 

[jeff9366]

Suggested revisions to Working Draft 6 are WELCOME.

WORKING DRAFT (6)​

The most efficient way to shop for tractors is to list your tasks first, then determine bare tractor weight needed to SAFELY accomplish your tasks. Bare tractor weight is a tractor specification easily found in sales brochures and web sites, readily comparable across tractor brands and tractor models.

For most tractor tasks greater chassis weight is more important than tractor horsepower. For novice tractor shoppers the fundamental importance of tractor WEIGHT is difficult to comprehend. In subcompact and compact tractor categories it requires a 50% increase in bare tractor weight before you notice a significant tractor capability increase. It takes a 100% increase in bare tractor weight to elicit MY-OH-MY!

Shop your weight range within tractor brands. Budget will eliminate some choices. Collect a dealer brochure for each tractor model in your weight range. I spreadsheet tractor and implement specs, often a revealing exercise. I have a column for cost per pound.

Tractors under 3,000 pounds bare weight are offered in one configuration. Most, such as the high volume Kubota Standard L Series, are sparely equipped to hit competitive price points. Others, such as the Yanmar YT235 and Kubota B2650/B3350 series, include enhanced productivity and comfort components.

Most tractors under 3,000 pounds bare weight operate in residential applications on one to five flat acres. These "residential tractors" fit in a typical garage.

Heavier tractors are built on larger frames with larger wheels/tires. Heavier tractors with large diameter tires have more tractive power pulling ground contact implements, pushing a loader bucket into dirt and pushing snow. Larger wheels and tires mean more ground clearance, enabling a heavier tractor to bridge holes, ruts and downed tree limbs with less bucking, yielding a less disturbing passage over rough ground.

Safe hillside operation demands more tractor weight than level land operation. Tractors optimized for hill work have liquid installed in the rear tires rather than air. "Loaded" tires are filled 75% to capacity with liquid, which lowers the tractor's center-of-gravity, making a tractor more stable and increasing rollover resistance. "Loading" two compact tractor rear tires will increase weight 300 pounds to 800 pounds over weight of same two tires inflated with air.

Heavier tractors have adjustable rear wheel spreads; wide rear wheel spreads reduce tractor lateral instability.

Safe hillside operation requires four wheel drive (4-WD). Tractors have brakes only on the rear wheels. When going down hill, tractor weight distribution shifts forward, decreasing rear tire grip. With 4-WD engaged tractor feigns four wheel braking. Without 4-WD engaged, on a steep slope, an uncontrolled descent may occur.

Tractors over 3,000 pounds bare weight are generally offered in a utilitarian configuration and a deluxe configuration, on a common chassis. Deluxe kit enhances productivity and operating comfort ~~~ but you have to pay. Many tractors over 3,000 pounds bare weight are too tall to fit in a typical garage, even with ROPS folded.

Selling a used tractor is easy. Selling light implements in order to buy heavier, wider, implements for a heavier tractor you eat more depreciation on the implements than on the tractor. Passing time with multiple implement browsers is a pain. ((Ask me how I know.))

For most new to tractors a quality dealer, reasonably close, available for coaching, is important. Almost every new tractor is delivered with a glitch or two that requires correction. My Kubota dealer is six miles away. I feel my local dealer continues to add value to my equipment. Dealer proximity is less important to others, well experienced with tractors, who perform their own maintenance.

BUY ENOUGH TRACTOR.​

 

[majorwager]

Important to know the tractor center of gravity. Using a common 24" rim as an example, 50 percent might be @ and below the gravity center?
The additional 25 percent of liquid may actually contribute to hillside instability.

Important to read the owner's mamual carefully to determine safe hillside operation. Most tire ballast recomendations, are designed to counter-balance FEL loading. If the manual does NOT specifically reference tire ballasting as a means to stabilize sloped operation, consult the dealer for any published material from the manufacturer on this subject. Also consider wheel weights which would likely mount below the center of gravity.
Weights are removable as circumstances change.

NOTE: Not uncommon to purchased pre-enjoyed equipment including implements. Whether from dealer or individual, always attempt to obtain a copy and read it. Many manufactures will provide a copy electronically (kubota) or w/ minimal postage/handling . The owner's manual is your friend,

Sloped operation requires common sense. Any rear ballast should NOT be construed as super adhesion suddenly adhered to bottom tire tread surface contact point.