Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..)

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   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #51  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Chet,

I am sure can disintegrate that can for sure. However, I should have clarified my point, to say that the average person who had NO training with a handgun. In any event, it is a lot harder to gain accuracy than it looks on TV! Consistent training is key.
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #52  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Henro. . . I really do apologize for jumping, and I did throw out a blanket apology to everyone because I did go off into a rant.

So to be a bit more specific with the statistics. . . .


** Americans own 60-65 million handguns -- 1 of every 3 privately owned guns. (BATF firearm production, import, and export data; Gary Kleck, Targeting Guns, 1997; American Firearms Industry, www.amfire.com.)
** More than one million new handguns are manufactured (and not exported) and imported each year. (American Firearms Industry)
** One of every four households has one or more handguns. (Gary Kleck, analysis of General Social Surveys, Targeting Guns, 1997)
** Handguns, like rifles and shotguns, are widely used for target shooting, self-protection and hunting, and many are of interest to collectors and reenactors.

Target Shooting, Hunting, and Training
** Each year, millions of American handgun owners engage in informal target shooting; hundreds of thousands participate in thousands of handgun matches. Handgun sports have grown dramatically in the last 30 years. Handguns are used for hunting in 45 states. Of NRA`s 38,000 Certified Instructors, 29,000 are certified in handgun disciplines.

Defense Against Criminals
** Handguns are used for protection against criminals nearly two million times per year, up to five times more often than to commit crimes. (Kleck, "The Frequency of Defensive Gun Use," in Kates and Kleck, The Great American Gun Debate, S.F.: Pacific Research Institute for Public Policy, 1997.)
** People who use guns to defend themselves are less likely to be attacked or injured than people who use other methods of protection or do not defend themselves. (Kleck, analysis of Nat`l Crime Victimization Surveys, Targeting Guns, 1997)
** The laws of all 50 states recognize the right to use armed force for defense. The U.S. Constitution and 44 state constitutions protect the right to use arms for defense.

Handgun Bans and Racism
** In America, efforts to ban handguns -- especially those to ban so-called "Saturday Night Specials" -- have historically been aimed at minorities. (E.g., Black Codes, Tenn. Army/Navy Law, N.Y. Sullivan Law.)
** Blacks and persons in the lowest income bracket are the most likely violent crime victims. (Bureau of Justice Statistics, Michael Rand, "Criminal Victimization 1997, Changes 1996-97 with Trends 1993-97," 12/98)

Handguns, Self-Defense and Public Opinion
** By an 8:1 margin, Americans believe you have the right to use a handgun to defend yourself in your own home. By a 3:1 margin, people believe that to fight crime, getting tough with criminals is more effective than banning guns. (Survey of voters, Lawrence Research, 1998.)

Handgun Ban Failures
** Washington, D.C.`s homicide rate more than tripled after the city banned handguns. D.C. consistently has the highest homicide rate among major U.S. cities. (FBI)
** Chicago banned handguns in 1982 and in a decade homicides with handguns more than doubled. (Chicago Homicide Dataset) Chicago has the fourth highest homicide rate among major U.S. cities. (FBI)

Target Shooting -- Each year, millions of handgunners enjoy the most common target shooting sport, recreational "plinking." They practice for or compete in marksmanship competitions, "sight in" their guns in advance of hunting season, test handloaded ammunition, or perfect personal protection skills. Hundreds of thousands participate in thousands of local, state, regional and national handgun matches annually, using a wide variety of pistols and revolvers in a broad range of formal competitive disciplines, at 10,000 NRA-affiliated state and local shooting clubs and associations or at commercial indoor and outdoor ranges and military ranges.

NRA Bullseye and UIT (International Shooting Union) disciplines have been established for generations, while a variety of other target shooting disciplines have evolved during the last several decades. Ten types of NRA Action Shooting matches, and action-oriented events held under International Practical Shooting Confederation rules, test the ability of handgunners to fire at a variety of stationary and moving targets, at a variety of distances, from a variety of shooting positions, usually "against the clock." Center-fire and rimfire metallic silhouette matches conducted under NRA or International Metallic Silhouette Association rules add a hunting-oriented dimension to handgun target shooting. Cowboy Action Pistol matches challenge shooters` proficiency with single-action revolvers first introduced during the 19th Century. Muzzleloading pistol matches call for handguns whose design predates the invention of fixed, metallic cartridges. The NRA Competitive Shooting Division sanctions more than 12,000 shooting tournaments and sponsors over 50 national Bullseye, Action, and Silhouette pistol championships each year.

Recognizing the growth of handgun sports and advent of related equipment, Tom Griffin, Manager of the Lyman Products Ballistics Laboratory writes, "Over the last 30+ years handgun sports have grown faster than any other segment of the shooting world. . . . All of this activity has led to major advancements in the design of handguns themselves. It is hard to believe that something we take for granted today, stainless steel handguns, have only been available since the mid-sixties. Other items such as fully adjustable, precision sights, recoil absorbing rubber grips, handgun scopes, red-dot sights, laser sights, etc., have all been developed to meet the needs of the increasingly difficult handgun disciplines. Many of today`s handgunners can make shots that were unheard of years ago because of their advanced equipment and participation in today`s demanding sports." (Lyman Pistol and Revolver Reloading Handbook, Second Edition, 1994, p. 8.)

Acknowledging the growth of handgun shooting sports in a 1998 report to Congress, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) noted, "The handgun has developed as a sporting firearm used in both target shooting and hunting." Among contributing factors, BATF cited renewed interest in the single- action revolver, the development of new cartridges for field use, and the popularity of silhouette pistol shooting giving rise to specially designed handguns. Indicating the widespread use of handguns for target shooting and hunting, BATF noted that approximately 460.4 million rounds of center-fire handgun ammunition are manufactured in the U.S. each year, more than three billion rounds of .22 caliber rimfire ammunition (used in handguns and rifles) are manufactured in the U.S. or imported each year, and another 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition above .22 caliber (for handgun and/or rifle) were imported in 1996. (Dept. of the Treasury, BATF, "A Study Concerning the Threat to Law Enforcement Officers From the Criminal Use of Firearms and Ammunition," pp. 23-24.) Annually, about 425 million rounds of center-fire ammunition are handloaded by individual gun owners. (Lyman, p. 12.) For more information on target shooting and match schedules, contact the NRA Competitive Shooting Div. at 703-267-1450 or www.nrahq.org, or refer to the NRA`s monthly "Shooting Sports, USA" publication. See also Lyman, pp. 8-9, 86-96 and www.lymanproducts.com .

Hunting -- In NRA`s 1998 Whitetail Hunting Survey, 17% of respondents said they had hunted with a handgun during the current season. The May 1993 MRI Customized Readership survey found that for each type of game in question, between 8-10% of hunters had hunted with a handgun during the past year. Forty-five states allow hunting with handguns. BATF`s report (see above) stated (pp. 23-24), "While any handgun could be used for hunting small game at short distances, hunting handguns tend to vary in caliber from .22 to .45, depending on the size of the game being hunted," though "some single-shot handguns. . . are chambered for rifle-type ammunition" commonly used for hunting. BATF also noted that the increased popularity of hunting with handguns led to the introduction of new calibers of handgun ammunition.

Self-Defense -- In a landmark survey, criminologist Gary Kleck found that handguns are used in about 2/3 of 2.5 million annual defensive firearm uses. (Kates and Kleck, p. 180.) Analyzing Nat`l Crime Victimization Surveys, Kleck found that people who use firearms to defend themselves are less likely to be attacked or injured than people who use other or no protective methods. Protection method and percents of individuals injured included: gun, 17.4%; knife, 40.3%; other weapon, 22.0%; physical force, 50.8%; tried to get help, frighten offender, 48.9%; threatened/reasoned with offender, 30.7%; nonviolent resistance, including evasion, 34.9%; other, 26.5%; any self-protection, 38.2%; no self-protection, 24.7%. Kleck also found that "at most, 1% of defensive gun uses resulted in the offender taking a gun away from the victim," including instances in which burglars stealing guns from homes are confronted by homeowners armed with other guns. (Kleck, pp. 168, 171.)

BATF`s report (p. 24) recognized the utility of handguns for self-defense, noting, "Self-defense handguns are generally small, lightweight revolvers and semiautomatic pistols, varying from .22 to .38 caliber" and "Many of these firearms are available in .25, .32, .380, and 9 mm caliber. Some of the better quality self-defense handguns are also used for target shooting."

Anti-gun activists take the position that private citizens do not have the right to acquire, possess or use guns to protect themselves against criminals. Handgun Control, Inc. (HCI) Chair Sarah Brady has said, "the only reason for guns in civilian hands is for sporting purposes." (Tom Jackson, "Keeping the battle alive," Tampa Tribune, 10/21/93.) HCI`s first Chairman, Pete Shields, said crime victims should "put up no defense - give them (the criminals) what they want . . ." (Shields, Guns Don`t Die - People Do, N.Y.: Arbor House, 1981, p. 125.) According to Dennis Henigan, of HCI`s Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, self-defense is "not a federally guaranteed constitutional right." (USA Today, 11/20/91.)

Weighing positive uses of handguns against criminal misuses -- Handgun ban advocates argue that handguns are the type of firearm more likely to be used in crimes, for example, 51% of homicides in 1999. (FBI, Crime in the United States 1997, pp. 68, 207.) However, guns are used for defense against criminals three to four times more often than they are used to commit crimes. Studies by researchers with a record of anti-gun biases have alleged that handguns (and other firearms) kept for protection against criminals are more likely to be used against family members, but experts have faulted those researchers` methodology. Gary Kleck explains the most serious of the studies` flaws: "(T)he benefit of defensive gun ownership that would be parallel to innocent lives lost to guns would be innocent lives saved by defensive use of guns. As previously noted, less than one in a thousand defensive gun uses involves a criminal being killed." (Kleck, p. 178.) Addressing handgun prohibitionist literature produced by public health activists, civil rights attorney Don B. Kates writes, "(A)nti-gun health advocacy literature is a `sagecraft` literature in which partisan academic `sages` prostitute scholarship, systematically inventing, misinterpreting, selecting, or otherwise manipulating data to validate preordained political conclusions."("Guns and Public Health: Epidemic of Violence or Pandemic of Propaganda,?" Tennessee Law Review, Spring 1995, p. 522.)


I can post about 50 times more data than this, but I suspect that people will get really bored with that.
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..)
  • Thread Starter
#53  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

W O W !!!

This thread is kickin! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

The information and opinions are great. I thought I would clarify a bit. I have in the past been a very avid shooter with handguns. Not so much with long guns. My thoughts with the 45 are that the slower projectile in conjunction with hollow points would be less likely to penetrate my walls. Keep in mind I have a fairy stout plaster wall home. I will check out those glazers though. I had seen them in the past, but was never concerned until now with wall penetration.

In the past I carried the P7e 9mm, and I used a Smith 640 hammerless 5 shot J-frame revolver in .357 magnum for the bedside brute. Nothing to fool with in the line of safeties, no jams, and if you miss, you would incinerate the intruder with the bucket of flame that bad boy spills out.

I plan to get the little safe that uses a hand print finger combo to open the door. (hard to describe, but if your in to guns, you’ve seen them). I want an auto so in the worst case, at least it would be unloaded and somewhat difficult for a child to load, cycle the action and operate. I say this with the understanding that this is no substitute for securing the weapon in a safe, and educating as much as possible my children.

I am now looking at a used Sig P220, and numerous new 1911 styles. I really like the Kimber, but mucho dinero.

I’ll keep in the mix… Great stats by the way! Most people never get to hear the truth.
/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #54  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

I think, or hope, most people here suggesting the use of a shotgun over a .45 to reduce collateral damage are talking about using small (#8) bird shot, not 00 Buck. While at very close range, even through a couple sheets of drywall, I would say a 12 gauge is more devastating than a .45. But as range increases the shotgun with #8 will most certainly become less lethal a lot faster than a .45 slug. Just imagine shooting out the door of your house at the neighbors across the street with these two weapons. The birdshot would almost certainly not be lethal to anyone inside that house whereas the .45 slug would be unless stopped by a brick wall or perhaps a wall stud.

I remember an instance, when we were still teenagers, where a friend of mine came in from dove hunting and laid his 870 pump 12 gauge on his bed thinking he had unloaded it. His little teenage brother came in, saw it and picked it up holding it across his lap on the bed fingering the trigger. Well it was loaded and went off blowing a 2” hole through the bathroom door which was about 3 feet from the muzzle, blowing the seat completely off the toilet, and shattering the water tank. It didn’t exit the exterior wall though. Man if someone had been sitting on that thing.

I always wondered if I could hit anything with a handgun under stressful conditions, like someone attacking me inside my house, with all that adrenaline pumping. Would like to think so, but you never know till it happens and there are no dress rehearsals. Have had a problem when just looking at a non-threatening buck in my sights. Anyone ever experienced this?

Forwarding what a man, Jeff Cooper, who has “been there” on several occasions had to say about gunfights and defensive handguns. He said a .22 was just as lethal as a .45, but that stopping power was what you need and there is no comparison between the two. Shot in the chest with either you will likely die; just that after being shot with a .22 the attacker will have time to beat, stab, or whatever you to death before expiring. He said a head shot with either one would probably be effective, but can you count on being that accurate under stress?

He related a story to prove his point. A rather large woman ran into a police station a demanded that her husband be arrested. When asked why, she replied that he had shot her. Looking fine to the officer, he asked where. She said in the chest. Sure enough, she had been shot 5 times in the chest with a .25 auto. Before eventually dying from these wounds, she had run several blocks from her apartment and was still quite strong and animated for a period of time before her injuries finally took their toll.
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #55  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Henro -

The three incidents below are but a few examples of what happens every day across America. These newspaper clippings were taken from the "Armed Citizen" page of the American Rifleman (Nov. 03) Every month they have a few clippings from independent newspapers across the country on this subject.

These aren't raw statistics, but instead the details behind just a few of the very real situations where someone defended themselves using a firearm. Maybe not exactly what you were looking for, but hopefully it helps put a "face" on the statistics that Bob brought up. Statistics are good - but just remember, there's a story behind each one.

The Era-Leader, Franklinton, LA - 7/30/03
Thre ne'er-do-wells in Louisiana found it didn't pay to be greedy when robbing an elderly Pine, La., resident. The three men broke into the 79 year-old woman's home about 4 a.m. The resident was awakened by her barking dog and then realized there was a masked man standing near her bed. When the robber demanded money and jewelry, she shook her metal walker at him. He grabbed her purse and a jewelry box and left, but then returned with an accomplice. By then the resident had retrieved her handgun from under her mattress and aimed it at the returning intruders, who ran from the home. Three suspects were arrested and charged with armed robbery.

Desert Dispatch, Barsto CA - 8/16/03
A 76 year-old Newberry Spring, Calif., man was awakened by the sounds of someone breaking into his home in the early morning hours. The resident retrieved a handgun and confronted the intruder. As he held the would-be robber at gunpoint and dialed 9-1-1, the interloper made a threatening move toward the homeowner who then shot him once in the chest, killing him. "He was definitely there to steal from or rob the victim," reported San Bernadino County Sheriff's Sgt. Gerrit Tesselaar.

The Beacon Journal, Akron, OH - 09/03/03
Louis Caporaletti was sleeping in his Studio City apartment in Cuyohoga Falls, Ohio, when he wass awakened at 12:45 a.m. by two men breaking in to his home. Caporaletti confronted the intruders and during the ensuing fight, pulled out a 9mm handgun and fired at his assailants, wounding one. The resident then held the men at gunpoint until officers arrived. The two suspects were charged with aggravated burglary and robbery, according to police Lt. Tom Pozza.
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #56  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Or go here and: To find all records for a specific state, select that state from the drop-down and leave the keyword field blank. Click "submit search". /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Armed Citizen
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #57  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Egon, I like your idea! My gf was sprayed with some liquid oxygen once and got instant frostbite.

A fire extinguisher sized stream of -200 C liquid in the face would stop the most determined intruder!
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #58  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Thanks for the heads-up!!! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

You'd think a "lifer" like myself should've known about that. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Oh, well - thanks for the tip. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #59  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Yeah, I've been a "Lifer" one year at a time since '73. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Another area that generates a lot of discussion at times, is just what is the law pertaining to guns. This link will let you read the straight scoop on State & Federal Gun Laws.
Gun Laws
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #60  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

The only pistol I now own that would be a suitable carry gun is a S&W 469 in 9MM. It's compact but I'd like something without the safety/decocker lever. The Glocks look good, the 23 particularly, but there were adverts in the latest American Rifleman for both the S&W 99 and the XD so now I want to check them out.

This would be a carry pistol. As you said, not for all day but some of the time. I'll have a S&W Ladysmith in .38 to trade in so the cash outlay won't be astronomical. List on the S&W 99 is almost $800! Don't know what the street price is.
 
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