Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..)

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   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #61  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

I really like the Kimber 45's, & if they would sell them in Maryland I would buy one. MD law requires internal gun locks on new handguns sales. I even contacted Kimber and begged them to reconsider. Springfield Armory would be my second choice, but I'm still holding out hope for a Kimber.

I have penetration story about my Taurus 40SW, which I wouldn't recommend due to lack of accuracy - the gun's, not mine. While target plinking about 150ft from my house many years ago, I had a double riccochet off the ground that hit my house. The bullet passed through the wall into my bedroom, through my dresser - penetrating both sides and one draw, passing through the interior door, then 25 ft down the hall through the living room until it hit the steel garage door where in left an impression about the size of the slug, bouncing off the door back down the hall way into the bedroom next to my where it came to rest under the bed. I didn't find the slug until a month later.
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #62  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

" have you considered the use of some of the spray deterents that can incapicate an intruder."

I was playing with some of that one time and sprayed myself. The direction that those containers spray can be a little ambiguous under high stress situations. On the other hand, I have never had a problem figuring out by feel which end of a firearm the product emerged from.
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #63  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

""have you considered the use of some of the spray deterents that can incapicate an intruder."

I was playing with some of that one time and sprayed myself. The direction that those containers spray can be a little ambiguous under high stress situations. On the other hand, I have never had a problem figuring out by feel which end of a firearm the product emerged from.""

Me too, I bought some for my wife--some kinda super stopper spray. Oops, I sprayed my self in the face with it /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif. Hmmmm, that did not feel to good, on the other hand I was not exactly all that incapacitated. Imagine if rather than a scrawny nothing /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif I was hulking feller on drugs--nope--would not stop him either. I tell you what, I am sure I could out run him so that is what I would do but if'n I was to shoot him with my Glock 40 S&W he would be a'feel'n a mite bit more poorely than if I was to spray him in the face with some fancy deorderent /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif. J
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #64  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

By spray deterent I was also thinking of of a pump up water pistol filled with a water ammonia combination. It works well on dogs when out cycling.

Painted the right color with an attached lazer light it could assume some pretty vicious characteristics.

Egon
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #65  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

That's very risky if you encounter an armed burglar.

I also read somewhere that statistics show that many armed homeowners who try to use a gun during a home invasion end up being victimized by their own gun.

One should seriously consider whether or not they have the 'killer' instinct before they decide upon a protection plan for their home. If you can't pull the trigger, don't go there.

There are lots of good security systems, lights, dogs, etc which provide great prevention measures for those who can not pull the trigger.

I personally prefer a Colt 45 or Glock 27 and was taught to never point a gun unless you are ready to pull the trigger.

Just my $.02
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #66  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

BIGUN, rather than #8 shot for a home load, I think I might consider a #12. It is hard to find, but would be far less hazardous to people 2 rooms away. Better yet would be STEEL #12 or STEEL #8 because the steel shot has less weight therefore the kenetic energy will be lower in the event of a miss and it should penetrate far fewer pieces of drywall.

However, I would still prefer a quality 45acp or a quality revolver, loaded with Mag-Safe or Glaser Safety Slugs.

The shotgun is certainly an intimidating weapon, but inside a house I just think it would be a very dangerous tool to use, probably too dangerous, given the alternatives.
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #67  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

For the past 63 years, I've been one of the 3 out of 4 households which does NOT own 1 or more handguns. But, all of this talk about home defense has got me thinking about what we should be doing. It just adds fuel to my fire after the thread on home security systems.

My wife and I have been married for almost 40 years. I think the first thing we should do is sit down and seriously talk about locking our front door -- we have never done so, anywhere we have ever lived. There's no use thinking about any of the 3 sliding doors at the back of the house; we leave one or more of those open, year 'round, so the dogs can go in and out.

First thing we'd have to do is get a locksmith out to re-key the locks - we've been in this house for four years, and neither one of us has a clue where the keys are that we got with the house. The last house, where we lived for 21 years, we had to have the locks re-keyed when we went to sell it, because the real estate people wanted to put a lockbox on it, but we couldn't find a key to put in the lockbox.

On second thought, nah, I'm not gonna bring it up. Old habits are hard to break and we'd probably just end up locking ourselves out too much.

We do have keys to our mountain cabin, but that's because we lock it when we're not there. It's never been locked when we are there. And, we've learned to lock the deadbolt on our motor home at night, because our male greyhound, Rocky, figured out how to hit the lever action door handle and open the door himself when he wants out, but he hasn't figured out how to get back in.

All the statistics got me thinking. "Handguns are used for protection against criminals more than 2 millions times a year." What does that mean? How were they used? By whom? How successful was it? Was the protection needed, or were the handguns just "used" (whatever that means) whether they were needed or not? How many of those times was by a homeowner in the middle of the night? Not enough information, and it sure sounds slanted.

About "stopping power". Further on in the statistics, it says that "fewer than 1 in 1,000 defensives uses of a handgun result in the death of a criminal." That works out to fewer than 2,000 criminals being subjected to ultimate "stopping power", and again, it doesn't say how many of those were by homeowners confronted with a criminal. Probably most were by convenience store workers. Regardless, considering around 100 million households in the US, I like my odds.

I especially like my odds in another statistic. Paraphrasing (because I'm too lazy to go cut and paste the quotes), it says that people who use guns for defense are less likely to get hurt - 17+% of them get hurt. On the other hand, number 3 on the list of less likely, at 24+%, is no defense at all ("other weapon" was close behind at 22%). The average of any form of self protection was 38+%. The statistic is plain - on average, you're better off with no self-protection.

The statistics do go on to say that the use of a handgun for portection is 5 times higher than the use of guns for criminal activity. This is likely the reason why the use of a handgun is 7% more effective than no defense at all in the above paragraph. What I'd really like to see is how many people are hurt when they try to use a handgun against a criminal who does have a gun. I'm willing to bet the statistics really jump at the point - self-defenders who try to use a hand gun against a criminal with a gun are probably much more likely to get hurt than non-defenders. I base this on conversations with friends who are long-time law enforcement professionals. One told me, "If both you and the criminal have a gun, you're much more likely to be shot. The criminal is desperate, and is already a bad guy, or he wouldn't be a criminal with a gun. He's much more likely to shoot than you are. The worst thing you can do with a criminal who has a gun, is to show a gun." His further advice, "If you think you really need to have a handgun, get a little Saturday night special .25 caliber with a really short barrel. If you think you need it for defense, show it, and immediately point it up in the air and pull the trigger. The louder it is, and the more flame that shoots out from the barrel, the better deterrent it is. then, point it back at the criminal. This will work about 10% of the time, but it's better than trying to actually shoot the criminal, because that rarely works. It's also better than making a mistake and finding out that you didn't shoot a criminal, but your neighbor who also heard a noise and was out prowling with his gun."

Bottom line, I'm not an anti-gun nut, and have owned several plinking rifles in my time. My wife and I both enjoy target shooting, although we've had to give it up because our timid female greyhound quakes in fear at a firecracker, let alone a rifle shot. But, I am a logical, thinking person who understands that without a gun, the odds are decidedly in my favor.
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #68  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

A couple of additional points on the safe room concept.

Have your landline and cell phone inside the saferoom.

If someone decides to break into the saferoom, you have him set up for an effective shot. Shoot straight, that one needs killing. There won't be a jury on the planet that will convict you.

A saferoom allows you a better ability to preplan your shots, minimizing the variables, and ensuring you know where the rounds will come to a stop. It allows you to set up a killing zone for your assailant.

Regardless of what tactics you decide on, wargame as many scenarios as you can. The more thinking you've done in advance, the fewer goofy things are likely to go wrong if the sjit hits the fan. In particular, plan your shots. "If I stand here, I can fire there, and the stray rounds will go through the wall into the ground." "I can't see from here, so I want to stand over there." "The kid's room is over there, so I must shoot in this direction, that way return fire missing me will go into the kitchen." Stuff like that. It's your terrain. Use it to your advantage.

And pray you never have to use any of this stuff.
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #69  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

OkeeDon -

<font color="blue">”Handguns are used for protection against criminals more than 2 millions times a year." What does that mean? How were they used? By whom? How successful was it? Was the protection needed, or were the handguns just "used" (whatever that means) whether they were needed or not? How many of those times was by a homeowner in the middle of the night? Not enough information, and it sure sounds slanted.</font>

You apparently didn’t read my post citing independent news articles or BIGUN’s follow up telling you where you can access hundreds of independent newspaper articles that put a “face” on these statistics. If you want the “Who, What, Where, When, Why, & How’s” of incidents that make up the statistics from independent sources, go search the database for your state like BIGUN suggests - it provides all the information you say you seek.

<font color="blue">I base this on conversations with friends who are long-time law enforcement professionals. </font>

I don’t doubt you have a friend(s) who said those things. However, please remember that you aren’t the only one with “friends” in law enforcement. Suffice to say, I have friends in law enforcement myself and most all the folks * I * know have a very different “take” than your cop-friends. In fact, almost every cop I know was in favor of the CHL law when it passed and actually tend to be much more comfortable around CHL folks. Not all in law enforcement are like your friends, nor are all are like mine - I will say though that I’ve found a lot more that seem to reflect my viewpoint than yours.

<font color="blue">But, I am a logical, thinking person who understands that without a gun, the odds are decidedly in my favor. </font>

Insulting those of us who have a different “logical” view of the world aside, if you choose not to have a gun for protection, that is entirely up to you and I have no problem with it.

You may be lucky and nobody will ever go through your unlocked door or open window and slit your throat or rape your wife in the middle of the night. (It’s not just young college co-eds that get raped.) I honestly hope that never happens to you. If you believe your “chances” are better being unarmed, fine - go ahead - but some of us here haven’t had the same “luck” as you (at no fault of our own), and based on my personal experiences in this matter, I choose to defend myself with a weapon.

“It won’t ever happen to me” are famous last words...
 
   / Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..) #70  
Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Sorry, I meant no insult with my "logical" comment. I used the statistics from this thread, saw that people who do not defend themselves get hurt much less than people who do defend themselves, and came to a conclusion on my odds of getting hurt.

I have never used the "It won't happen to me" argument. I spoke in terms of the odds of it happening.

As far as the stories behind the statistics are concerned, I was looking for more general information. Of the 2 million handgun defense situations reported, how many are homeowners defending against breakins? What types of different situations are used in reaching that total, and how do they apply to this thread about homeowner defense?

I did go to the site that was suggested and read the individual stories, but a quick glance showed that it is one-sided. There is no presentation of the tragic stories of gun-related accidents and abuse. Nothing of the teenager who got his grandfather's gun and killed his teacher; nothing of the Louisiana man who shot a trick-or-treater, nothing of the kids who play with guns, nothing of the kids who got a family member's guns and shot up a middle school.

In my city of over 100,000 population, I know of only one break in that resulted in the death of the homeowners. It is still unsolved after about 6 years. It may help that my city has been named the "Safest in Florida" for its size for the past several years. Yet, there are frequent stories of husbands and wives shooting each other in domestic aruments, convenience store workers being shot in robberies, and, just a short time ago, the all-too-common story of kids playing alone in a house after school, using toy guns, when the kid who lived in the house went and got his father's gun to try to impress the other kids - and killed his best friend. I was sickened by the tragedy, but the parents of the dead kid forgave the kid who pulled the trigger -- they were too young to really know what they were doing. Those stories are just as frequent, if not more frequent, than the ones cited by the NRA site, and they are very much more tragic.

Most of the people on this thread are responsible and take pains to prevent such things from happening. But, I have had 2 guns stolen from me over my lifetime, even though they were locked up, and I shudder to think about my responsibility if either has been used to cause any tragedy. My responsbility is that I caused the gun to be there in the first place by purchasing it. If I had never owned a gun I wouldn't have that worry.

Here's my solution: Let anyone buy and own any weapons they want. Register all purchases. Then, if that weapon is ever used, by anyone, in any circumstances, at any time, whether still in the possession of the original owner or not, to commit a crime, then the original owner bears the same penalty as the person who used the gun. Because, if the gun had never been purchased from the manufacturer in the first place, it wouldn't be available for misuse. That is the ultimate responsibility of gun ownership.
 
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