Guns! - I promised (yes it's rural related..)

Bob_Skurka · Dec 4, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

So the original intent of a corn picker is to pick corn . . . which by coincidence kills it.

We could go on and on and on. I won't anymore. If this thread goes back to discussions on what type of gun, or onto security systems, or something like that I may re-enter the fray.

OkeeDon · Dec 4, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Bob, I'm late to pick up my B-i-l at the airport, but my comment was based on the original design intent of a firearm, not any indivusual's intent to purchase. A tractor was designed to till the ground. It may also kill. A gun was designed to kill. It may also be sporting (the gun, not the killing, necessarily /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

Egon · Dec 4, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Nope; those pump up water guns have a real nice range. Given a face full of ammonia spiked water might make vision a little difficult.

And as I said; they work great on dogs when out biking.

Egon

Bob_Skurka · Dec 4, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

OkeeDon . . . I know I promised NOT to post, but I could not resist since you are picking up your brother in law from the airport . . . it should be noted that the original intent of JET engines (developed by Germany in WWII) was to propel military aircraft to kill people FASTER.

RanchMan · Dec 4, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Moss -

If you have no problem with it why did you take it as an insult? Hmmm? 

This time instead of flying off the handle so you can take "Pot shot" (pun intended) at ol' RanchMan, CAREFULLY READ the sentence and then the post as a whole. You'll notice that there are 3 separate concepts lodged in a single sentence. Let's look at it shall we??

Insulting those of us who have a different “logical” view of the world aside, if you choose not to have a gun for protection, that is entirely up to you and I have no problem with it. 

Insulting those of us who have a different “logical” view of the world aside...
In the first part of the sentence, I let him know I take offence to being called (and him calling other folks) "Illogical" because we don’t agree with him or his statistical analysis. Seems pretty straight forward to me. I even go further to specifically say this offence is unrelated to the second part of the sentence by using the word “aside.”

...if you choose not to have a gun for protection, that is entirely up to you...
In this part of the sentence, I affirm the belief that it is an individual's personal choice to own/not own a gun for protection. My belief is actually far more broad in that it is an individual's personal choice to own a gun or not - regardless of reason (target, hunting, defense, etc.) I will not TELL HIM to own a gun nor will I TELL HIM not to own a gun - I say it's HIS DECISION. Go back to previous posts of mine on the subject (some on CBN). I’m VERY consistent on this point.

... and I have no problem with it. 
This 3rd part is referring to the second part of the sentence - meaning I have no problem with the fact he chooses not to own a gun for himself. Yes, I DO HAVE A PROBLEM when he calls myself, Bob, or others "illogical" Yes, I think he is missing out. Yes, I think he is putting himself at risk - but a "problem" with him not owning a gun? Nope. It is his life and his decision whether or not to have one.

Most of the police officers that I have spoken with .... 
Argh. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif We are bound to go round and round on this one. Apparently Bob and I have completely different experiences than you. You may not believe what we have to say with regards to the law enforcement community - but we aren't lying to promote a cause. Go prove it to yourself - skip the news folks (oh yea, the media is NOT BIASED AT ALL /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif) and get involved with your local law enforcement community (a lot have things like "Citizen's Police Academy" where you actually learn what REALLY happens in law enforcement - which is wayyyy different than the movies.) Talk to the officers you meet over time there - heck - make a tally sheet. I suspect your "evidence" that cops hate people defending themselves will change.

And most of the officers get the willies when thinking of everyone licensed to carry a concealed weapon. 
As a matter of fact, I know of 2 ex-cops and one currently employed as a homicide investigator who CURRENTLY GIVE CHL CLASSES. Let me explain why cops (in general) like CHL holders (at least here in Texas). Background checks. See, to get a CHL here in Texas, you have to go through fingerprinting - which gets sent off to both the DPS and FBI for investigation (and a lot of other stuff) ONLY IF YOU PASS an in-depth background check can you get a license. Basically, CHL holders jump through lots more hoops than anyone just buying a handgun (NICS name/id check). Why do cops like this? The likelihood that a CHL holder is some dangerous criminal is extremely small - and think of it this way - how many criminals even try to get a license??? Maybe you’re cops up there “get the willies” but most all of them ** I ** know like CHL holders. (BTW, CHL holders are more educated on the law as that is part of the course.)

Unfortunately as TresCrows suspected, I feel the heat being turned up in here a notch. Like you've said - you've never been a victim and to defend yourself or your family in a life threatening situation. If you ARE exposed to that, I suspect your "logic" (and agreement with OkeeDon will change.) I DO hope your opinion changes - but NOT due to tragic circumstances. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Bird · Dec 4, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Egon, 50 years ago, I carried a water pistol loaded with ammonia while riding my bike. Yep, I think that works pretty well for dogs; don't really believe it would be very good against a burglar in your home, but of course, can't say for sure since neither I nor anyone I know has used it for that purpose. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

JDGREEN4ME · Dec 4, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

I use a .40 Smith & Wesson TACTICAL as my carry ( I have a concealed weapon permit) and home defense choice. I had a Ruger SP101 .357 for a carry gun but it was too heavy. In regards to the other issues I was raised to respect all guns and that they were not meant to be toys or objects of amusement. If I had ever "snuck a gun out of grandfather's gun case" I can only imagine the hell that would have become my life. I would never tell anyone to buy or not buy for that matter a weapon. I also believe that once the choice of ownership is made then the responsibility to learn how to properly and safely use one must be followed.

MossRoad · Dec 4, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

OK, Don. You've confirmed my diagnosis... you're nuts! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Just kidding. I suppose you're right that if they're going to attempt a break in, they're going to assume the door is locked before they go in. An alarm system should still discourage them once they opened the door. Personally, I can't do the "it's my time" thing. I know it might be out of my control, but only to an extent. Why make it easy for them?

As for your tractor turnover incident, I read that and was relieved that you were able to walk away. Freak circumstances that you weren't injured or worse. Didn't have your seat belt on either. Probably why you didn't drown. In my opinion, you still beat the odds. All things I've read point to better survival statistics if you have your seat belt on, yet you ignored that and lived. So, to turn the tables on you, all things you've read point to a gun in the house being more dangerous. So, you gonna get one now? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif hee hee.

Just having some fun, Don. Thanks for indulging me. Best wishes to you and yours. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

r0GuE · Dec 4, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Stop or I'll SHOOT!! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Just kidding!!!

C'Mon now. To those who are waging the anti-gun hijacking of this thread, I respectfully request that if you want an argument, you start a new thread. May I suggest Wal-Mart as the topic /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif!

This thread is intended to foster a good discussion on the topic of defense (firearms in particular). If you feel safe in an unlocked house with no defensive plan for yourselves other than the kindness of strangers, that is great, (really it is).

I have in the past been an avid shooter, gun enthusiast, 2nd amendment supporter and self defense advocate. I am absolutely unwilling to take a lackadaisical attitude when it comes to the safety of my family. I can and will personally guarantee the safety of my family. I will not shoot them in the night, I will not leave loaded guns where my children can play with them. I will teach my children immediately and consistently about guns and safe practices with them. I can and will (if forced to) defeat an intruder to my home if need be (not to defend my VCR, but to defend my wife and children). I will not miss given the distances available I my home.

I want this thread alive, and I fear that it is creeping toward lockdown. There are some great folks here who know plenty of info on this topic and have interesting things to say. If you feel that guns are dangerous, I suggest you move to Washington D.C., where they are illegal so everyone is safe.

Thanks all, I do appreciate everyone’s opinion.

MossRoad · Dec 4, 2003

Re: Guns! - I promised (yes it\'s rural related..)

Thanks for diagramming your sentence with the nice bold, italics and colors. It makes the thought process easier to follow.

In the first part of the sentence, I let him know I take offence to being called (and him calling other folks) "Illogical" because we don’t agree with him or his statistical analysis. 

I took it as him referring the logic behind his thought process, not insinuating that everyone that didn't agree with him was not logical.

You may not believe what we have to say with regards to the law enforcement community - but we aren't lying to promote a cause. 

I quote myself from my reply to you...

 I believe you. 

Go prove it to yourself - skip the news folks (oh yea, the media is NOT BIASED AT ALL ) and get involved with your local law enforcement community (a lot have things like "Citizen's Police Academy" where you actually learn what REALLY happens in law enforcement - which is wayyyy different than the movies.) Talk to the officers you meet over time there - heck - make a tally sheet.

I believe I did prove it to myself when I asked my officer family members and friends and they told me as I stated below:

 Most of the police officers that I have spoken with and that are interviewed on local TV or in the newspaper discourage people from trying to use a gun to protect themselves or their property. and I did skip the news folks. I quoted the officers, not the reporters.

 I suspect your "evidence" that cops hate people defending themselves will change. 

I never offered any evidence that cops hate people defending themselves. You made that up.

 As a matter of fact, I know of 2 ex-cops and one currently employed as a homicide investigator who CURRENTLY GIVE CHL CLASSES. 

Again, I believe you.

 Let me explain why cops (in general) like CHL holders (at least here in Texas). Background checks. See, to get a CHL here in Texas, you have to go through fingerprinting - which gets sent off to both the DPS and FBI for investigation (and a lot of other stuff) ONLY IF YOU PASS an in-depth background check can you get a license. Basically, CHL holders jump through lots more hoops than anyone just buying a handgun (NICS name/id check). Why do cops like this? The likelihood that a CHL holder is some dangerous criminal is extremely small - and think of it this way - how many criminals even try to get a license???

I've read that many people here in Indiana have been denied a handgun purchase due to past criminal history that was caught by the background check. But I haven't read of anyone getting caught while applying for the concealed carry permit.

Maybe you’re cops up there “get the willies” but most all of them ** I ** know like CHL holders. (BTW, CHL holders are more educated on the law as that is part of the course.) 

Again, I believe you and your experiences.

Like you've said - you've never been a victim and to defend yourself or your family in a life threatening situation. 

I never said that. Perhaps you have someone else's post in mind. What I said was: ...we never locked our doors until all the neighbors got their stuff taken and/or confronted by bad guys in their homes. We wizened up after a while. meaning, as a kid, we never locked our doors until things became unsafe. I never said that I have never been a victim of violent crime. In fact, I have.

 If you ARE exposed to that, I suspect your "logic" (and agreement with OkeeDon will change.) I DO hope your opinion changes - but NOT due to tragic circumstances. 

You suspected incorrectly /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif How do you know I've never been exposed to that? How do you know I've never had to defend myself or my family in a life threatening situation? Maybe I've been put in that situation and didn't like the outcome and it helped me to decide that we shouldn't have a loaded gun in the house or on my person any more. How do you know that I am not involved in my community or with our local law enforcment community? I have 4 family members that are police officers. And they have told me what I have told you.

So, as I wished Okeedon, I wish you and yours the best. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Sorry for the rant.