HARD DECISION

[Farmwithjunk]

FWJ, The basic design of the 3525, which comes from the old IH B275, is about as old as the design on the 231, which goes back to the MF 35. Yet the MF design is time tested, and the Mahindra's is not?

Personally I know a lot of people that bought new 231 and 231S MFs back when they were selling them at what seemed to be really good prices ($11,500 to $12,000 in '99). Most folks in my area that counted on them for farm use have gotten rid of them, because they were plagued with problems. It seems that even though those tractors shared a lot of the old 35 and 135 design they did not share the same quality. I know one guy that got rid of his 231 after only a few years and got an older tractor that would be more dependable to use to raise his 10,000 lbs or so of tobacco.

The 231 was built in Poland and imported to the U.S. The same tractor is still available new as an URSUS brand, and is built in the same factory as the 231.

Some folks have complained about 231 parts availability, as it was not standardized with the 240 and other Masseys and underwent some production changes.

I once considered a new 231 and later a 231S, but their reps scared me off when I got to checking on the problems people were having with them. The Perkins engine seemed to never be a problem, but hydraulics and transmission problems seemed pretty common.

An interesting sidenote, for those into tractor brand wars. Some of the Mahindras and Masseys actually share common parts. The TYM built Mahindras and the compact 15 series Masseys have the same components from the tranny rearward.

"Comes from the IH B-275"? Hmmm. That's rather an odd statement. Let's see. It has a TOTALLY different engine, a different transmission design, different final drives, different hydraulic pump design, different PTO, different brakes, different steering, ....but they do BOTH have 4 wheels, so they must be simular tractors The closest the B-275 and the Mahindra 3525 come is the fact that Mahindra did built B-275's under license from IH. At that point, all simularities cease to exist. (Oh yeah, they are both red)

This ISN'T a critisism of the Mahindra 3525, nor of Mahindra in general. Just stating that the 3525 ISN'T in any way a later version of the B-275. It is a completely different tractor. My main issue with it in regards to the original post is the fact that it is quite a bit less power, and not capable of competing side by side under the same conditions as what would test the resolve of the 231 Massey Ferguson. For his needs, the 231 is a much better tractor. I'm sure there are Mahindras capable of matching HP, and they might be a better choice in this instance. Possibly the larger Mahindras didn't fit with-in the budget parameters or they might have been in the running.(?)


And I find it odd that the 231 didn't work out for farmers in your area, yet they're very much sought after as a small utility tractor by farmers and acreage owners all over the entire country. I know of dozens of 231's, still in the hands of the original owners, that have enjoyed years of trouble free use. Strange there's such a difference in perception of the same tractor in such a relatively close proximity, as we don't live all that far apart. For such an "unpopular" tractor, they sure do sell quick and hold a good resale value in this area. (as well as the rest of the world)

The 231 was in fact produced in Poland. Not too many domestic built tractors under 50 hp in the last 25 years. They have to be built somewhere.

There are differences in the 231 and other Massey's built prior to them. Subtle differences, but differences none the less. But MAJOR components such as ENGINE, Clutch/tranny/final drives, Hydraulics, and PTO are almost identical to what has been the mainstay of Massey Ferguson 30 to 45 hp tractors for half a century.

The fact that the Massey utility chassis design has been duplicated, built under license by several other brands, and is STILL the same basic configuration as it was more than 50 years ago should indicate to anyone what a brilliant concept it was and IS still. In those 50+ years, a few improvements have been made. All the parts from the first MF 35's don't interchange with the 533, or the 240, or even the 135. But park 'em side by side, and you'll see the striking simularities.

Tym (And another brand, SAME) build tractors under a licensing agreement from Massey Ferguson. They use MF designs incorporated into several "brands" they produce. No suprise they use a popular, successful, and well respected design concept.

The MF35/50/135/150/235/245/230/240/250/231/231S/ect design concept has been the most copied tractor in the world, with tens of millions of direct descendents still on the job. There's a perfectly good reason why.

A new generation of Massey utilitity's is about to hit the dealer lots. It remains to be seen if they end up being even a shadow of their older brothers. I guess we'll know in 50 years.

 

[john_bud]

Been following this very objective, non-judgmental and un-biased thread for a bit. ;-)


People do seem to personalize their tractor and tractor brand. It's odd, as everyone knows that (fill in the blank) is the best in the world and any other choice is dead wrong!



I thought back to 2000 when I bought my orange tractor. There were ZERO Mahindra dealers around. Went to the web site's dealer locater and there are now exactly 3 dealers. One 31 miles away, one 140 miles away and one 159 miles away. The close one is listed as an LLC and by the name sounds like a farm and they have no web site. Not exactly confidence inspiring. In fact, I put in the farthest dealers zip code and only got 1 more an additional 50 miles away in MI. SO there aren't any listed dealers in the Minneapolis / St Paul area, Lacrosse, Madison, Chicago or Milwaukee areas. Just the 3 dealers in small towns. (maybe it's a business opportunity??) JD, FNH, Kubota, Massey all have several dealers in the local area. Based on that I'd have to say that around here, Mahindra is an off-brand with little to no dealer support. Doesn't matter if they are in the top 5 world wide - I don't want to have to travel the world toting a sick tractor looking for parts or a person able to service it. It's a shame too, as they appear to make a decent machine with a loyal following. And I would rather buy a machine from India than from China for many various and sundry personal reasons.

Back on topic - I wouldn't buy a 27 PTO HP tractor with the intention of running a 6' cutter commercially. I would want 35 to 40 PTO hp. The extra reserve power would be needed in tough conditions, the extra "beef" in the frame would be welcome and not straining it to the limits would IMHO allow the machine to last much longer. Just one persons view...

jb

 

[DavesTractor]

Just talked to local heavy equipment dealer, they also sell JD and Kubota . He said Mahindra tractors were made in China and were mostly sold at tent sales, at least he has heard of them. I would never discourage anyone from buying what they like. I had thought he was looking for advice. Not wanting to piss anyone off, but really it would not bother me, to old for that.

Lucky, no offense, but your dealer is either ignorant or a liar. Mahindra is the third largest tractor company in the world, and you can be sure that John Deere is very aware of that. Your dealer may not like Mahindra, but if he has any knowledge at all, he will know it is not a fly-by-night company. One thing that is true is that it is not as established and has many small dealers. As such, there will be some turnover as the weaker dealers are weeded out. Mahindra isn't John Deere, no doubt, but it is a substantial player and gaining fast.

Most of our sales are the 15 series Mahindra's and they are built by Mitsubishi in Japan. The larger tractors are built in India and some in S. Korea. Mahindra does own a plant in China, but has yet to release the new Chinese tractor for sale in the USA. They have a few prototypes here now being tested, but they are all pre-production units.

Obviously this should not be a USA vs foreign built thread. I think someone mentioned that the 231 was built in Poland. Most compact and utilities are built overseas. It sounds like for Travis, the 231 is an excellent choice.

I'm a Mahindra dealer, but I can agree that there is often excellent value in a used "USA" brand utility tractor! If you can find a well cared for used one, why not buy it?

Let's not stir the pot just to keep it stirred. This type of thread tends to degenerate and then ultimately has little value. It just becomes a couple of ego's battling each other.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Lucky, no offense, but your dealer is either ignorant or a liar. Mahindra is the third largest tractor company in the world, and you can be sure that John Deere is very aware of that. Your dealer may not like Mahindra, but if he has any knowledge at all, he will know it is not a fly-by-night company. One thing that is true is that it is not as established and has many small dealers. As such, there will be some turnover as the weaker dealers are weeded out. Mahindra isn't John Deere, no doubt, but it is a substantial player and gaining fast.

Most of our sales are the 15 series Mahindra's and they are built by Mitsubishi in Japan. The larger tractors are built in India and some in S. Korea. Mahindra does own a plant in China, but has yet to release the new Chinese tractor for sale in the USA. They have a few prototypes here now being tested, but they are all pre-production units.

Obviously this should not be a USA vs foreign built thread. I think someone mentioned that the 231 was built in Poland. Most compact and utilities are built overseas. It sounds like for Travis, the 231 is an excellent choice.

I'm a Mahindra dealer, but I can agree that there is often excellent value in a used "USA" brand utility tractor! If you can find a well cared for used one, why not buy it?

Let's not stir the pot just to keep it stirred. This type of thread tends to degenerate and then ultimately has little value. It just becomes a couple of ego's battling each other.

I'm going to TRY to address a few of your points' agreeing with the lions share of what you said.

Mahindra IS a major player in the world market. They're making inroads in the US market, but aren't all the way through that door just yet. In the end, this country may just be the toughest nut to crack that they'll face. There's a LOT of history and several strong reputations to do battle with. With the exception of John Deere and Kubota, every established brand in existance has been bought out, merged, sold off, or changed ownership in the last 30 years. Reason why someone bought some of the "big names"? Because of their NAMES and the reputations they brought to the table. Mahindra hasn't cleared that hurdle...yet. They will. By the very nature of their existance, and where they came from, Mahindra has a leg up on many manufacturers who are just now landing where Mahindra started. The Indian market. I understand that India and China are the 2 largest tractor markets on the planet as of 2007. Mahindra has the name recognition in that part of the world that a John Deere or a Massey Ferguson has here.

But this thread is about a guy in Louisianna who has a limited amount of cash to buy a tractor capable of doing a predetermined chore. It WASN'T about Mahindra vs. Massey Ferguson. It was about $8000 worth of 34 hp vs. $9400 worth of 27 hp.

As far as I was concerned, it was NEVER about US vs. foriegn. Even back in the glory days of Massey Ferguson, when tractors flew off the line in Detroit, I still considered them a "foriegn brand" (England back then) and that never had ANY bearing on my likes or dislikes.

Somewhere along the line, it became brand vs. brand. I've TRIED my best to make my thoughts known. I saw the $8000, 34 hp, 231 Massey as a better choice than the $9400, 27 hp, Mahindra 3525, but in no way passed judgement AGAINST Mahindra's quality. When questioned as to why I didn't like Mahindra PERSONALLY, I gave MY reasons, based on MY situation, where I live. NO decent dealer in this area. AND my personal experience with a brand that does have a strong dealer in my area. That strong dealer represents the "brand A" in the A vs. B debate. Long story short, the 231 Massey in question was a btter fit than the 3525 Mahindra in question, for the person who was asking the questions, IMHO.

Oddly enough, one of the persons who was promoting Mahindra has also posted on this site, his displeasure with Mitsubishi products in the past, possibly not knowing that they produce some of what Mahindra sells. That speaks volumes as to the "Oh yeah, My brand is ALWAYS better than your brand" mentality that is often exibited. Sometimes those folks don't even know what "their brand" is.

If this conversation took place in the church lot after Sunday services, I'd say it did "degenerate and then ultimately has little value". But this is afterall, a tractor discussion forum. What better place to thrash out issues like this? In the end, SOME of us have learned a little. Some didn't. Mahindra and their loyal following is going to have to take a few shots to the chin before they're "equals" to the established majors in the US market. That's just the way it is. I understand as well as anyone how that works. Even though I own 2 Deere's a Ford, and my Massey, I'd probably consider myself more loyal to Massey than any single brand. (as if you couldn't already tell ) Massey holds claim to having the largest portion of world-wide tractor market by most accounts, yet we constantly hear about "THE BIG THREE" (Deere, Kubota, and New Holland) Respect comes hard. Sometimes it doesn't even come when earned.

In closing, my "opinion" of Mahindra is based on not knowing a great deal about them. That's the problem. They're a relative unknown trying to shove their foot in the door against established giants. Don't expect respect just because you demand it. That'll take time.

 

[Dougster]

It WASN'T about Mahindra vs. Massey Ferguson. It was about $8000 worth of 34 hp vs. $11,000 worth of 27 hp

A) 2006 Mahindra 3525 with 130hrs and 2 year warranty left on it for $8000 plus tax.

B) Brand New 2007 Mahindra 3525 with 3 year warranty for $9400 cash price.

C) 1999 Massey Ferguson 231 with 450hrs and a 6' King Kutter brush hog, also in very good condition for $10,000.

??????? New math Junk???????

Dougster

 

[Farmwithjunk]

??????? New math Junk???????

Dougster

So, 27 HP IS more than 34 HP? I never knew that. Must be INDIAN math.

Read on, and "quote" the part where he's found a simular deal on a 231 for $8000. Or since using all the facts doesn't do you case any justice are we not including them?

 

[DavesTractor]

I'm going to TRY to address a few of your points' agreeing with the lions share of what you said......

.....In closing, my "opinion" of Mahindra is based on not knowing a great deal about them. That's the problem. They're a relative unknown trying to shove their foot in the door against established giants. Don't expect respect just because you demand it. That'll take time.

I think your last post is a good summary and puts the point across nicely. Good job!

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I think your last post is a good summary and puts the point across nicely. Good job!

Thank you. Now MAYBE we can put this issue to rest.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Exactly, Kubota is still trying to get their foot in the door on the ag side of things. They gained a lot of respect in the compact market but in the ag world people laugh at them still. They have only been trying for what, 30 years or so?

 

[RollingsFarms]

Exactly, Kubota is still trying to get their foot in the door on the ag side of things. They gained a lot of respect in the compact market but in the ag world people laugh at them still. They have only been trying for what, 30 years or so?

I agree about the Kubota trying to break into the Ag market and getting laughed at.....still. they need to offer combines, highboy sprayers, pickers, etc. along with ag equipment before they will ever really break into that market. i don't think i will see this anytime soon either.

 

[DavesTractor]

Exactly, Kubota is still trying to get their foot in the door on the ag side of things. They gained a lot of respect in the compact market but in the ag world people laugh at them still. They have only been trying for what, 30 years or so?

I sure hate to defend Kubota , but in our area, they are well respected in the ag (orchard) market. I think a lot of opinions are based on your own reality....and a lot of that stems from where you live.

 

[Dougster]

So, 27 HP IS more than 34 HP? I never knew that. Must be INDIAN math. Read on, and "quote" the part where he's found a simular deal on a 231 for $8000. Or since using all the facts doesn't do you case any justice are we not including them?

And also the part where the $8K "Off-Brand" tractor suddenly jumped to $11K?

You are too funny Junk. You and "Lucky" need to get off the farm and get out a little more often!

By the way... Anyone know where I can find a good "tent sale"???

Dougster

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I agree about the Kubota trying to break into the Ag market and getting laughed at.....still. they need to offer combines, highboy sprayers, pickers, etc. along with ag equipment before they will ever really break into that market. i don't think i will see this anytime soon either.

The AG market is divided into a couple segments. Small to mid-sized/cattle and hay, and large grain operations. The large grain market is becoming smaller and smaller in terms of "units sold" as the size of those units steadily increase. A very limited line-up will do battle for that market. With mergers and aquisitions, that line-up is growing smaller too.

Where Kubota, and any prospective "newcomers" have their best legitimate shot is with the smaller or mid-sized cattle and hay guys. Kubota has every chance in the world of gaining MORE market share there. But they do need to break into the implement end of the market at some point, possibly offering haying equipment. Best chance there would be to buy an already established manufacturer. Not many left that HAVEN'T been absorbed into the fold somewhere else.

And I had forgot about that "orchard and vineyard" market. Kubota has their feet firmly through that door.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

And also the part where the $8K "Off-Brand" tractor suddenly jumped to $11K?

You are too funny Junk. You and "Lucky" need to get off the farm and get out a little more often!

By the way... Anyone know where I can find a good "tent sale"???

Dougster

Try a good 12 step program Doug. They can do wonders.

Meanwhile, you MIGHT want to think about not mixing part of what 10 different people say into one "quote". Not sure what your thinking is, if you're thinking at all.

So you need a tent to live in? Business must be lean for you

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I sure hate to defend Kubota , but in our area, they are well respected in the ag (orchard) market. I think a lot of opinions are based on your own reality....and a lot of that stems from where you live.

Dave, up here in Western New York I have access to 30 head dairy farms, 3000 head dairy farms. Small grain farms, 9000 acre grain farms. Small and large hay operations. Vegetable farms, Orchards, Vineyards and large horse farms. We don't have very many cattle farms up here though. But we have a large variety of farm operations and tons of equipment up here ranging from the little compacts on up to largest tractors, Cat/Agco, Deere and CNH make as well as a lot of old Steigers, and Versatiles.

From all of my travels and visits to these farms I can honestly say Kubota is not represented very well. The large farms run CNH, Deere and Agco equipment, The Orchards and vineyards run CNH and Deere equipment with some Same tossed in. There are some Kubotas in use but maybe only 10%. The horse farms I visit and deal with run New Holland and John Deere and I visit a lot of them hauling hay. The hay operations tend to run mostly CNH and Deere with some Agco because of the fact they can buy the hay equipment from the same dealer.

I have nothing against Kubota but their main market in WNY is homeowner use, property maintance and light logging. I do know of one small beef farm that has two M series Kubotas but he is surrounded by farms that run all green tractors.

Kubota has to keep working at it to really be accepted in the ag world. Adding hay equipment would really boost their standing as then they can market their tractor/equipment better. Instead, you buy a tractor from a Kubota dealer then you have to go to another dealer to buy your hay equipment. It is easier to deal with just one dealer which is what hurts the pure Kubota dealers.

One of my favorite farms to visit runs all old Oliver tractors to take care of their vegetables. They keep restoring them (much like FWJ) and putting them in the field to earn their keep.

I can't speak for all of the US but from visiting farms in Western and Central NY, Western and Central PA as well as Eastern Ohio I have a good idea of what the farms in this area run as well as the reputations the tractor brands and models have earned.

Does anyone think Fiat would have been accepted so easily here if they didn't buy Ford and Case-IH? That is a point FWJ was trying to make. Kubota is working their way in the old way by building their line. Fiat tried bring tractors here before but it didn't work. Now they have a brand name and strong dealer network as well as a full lineup of equipment and are automatically the top tractor company in the world. Kubota needs to decide if they want to compete in the small ag world and if they do then they need to jump in. The best way I see them being able to do that would be to partner with Kuhn or Krone. Kuhn equipment would match up well to Kubota tractors already and is one of the top hay equipment companies in the world. Krone has been rumored to be for sale from time to time but every time Agco tries to buy them they turn them down

 

[Bob_Young]

Here in 'not quite so far west' NY, there's some new colors showing up in the apple & cherry orchards: Orange and a purplish shade of blue.

Starting to see some Kubota M-series and some Farmtrac amongst the trees. Before it was mostly JD green and Ford (not NH) blue.

I attribute the Farmtrac mini-explosion to an aggressive local dealer, good value, and the fact that the orchards were mostly content with their old 1000-series Fords. Farmtrac sells a close clone to those old Fords and one of their Indian plants once made the 1000-series for Ford in Asia.

The Kubotas I've seen were cab models. Probably make pulling a sprayer a lot more bearable.

The fruit growers have their ups and downs here. Consequently they know how to stretch a buck.
Bob

 

[Robert_in_NY]

The Farmtracs are a good tractor and one the vineyard owners would love to see around here. They have some that use the same castings that the old Fords used and that allows them to upgrade their old Fords and use the same post pounders and weed sprayers on the new tractor without having to fab up new mounting plates and buy more hardware. My Valtra/Agco/Kioti dealer use to push the Farmtracs until he took on Kioti and now he has Agco also so he doesn't push the Farmtracs much anymore.

I was just up to Canadaigua the other day for the 2 cylinder Expo. You guys have a great area and one of these days I will head up and visit the vineyard farmers again.

The biggest thing with any tractor is the dealer. If you have a good dealer that can market their product then they will sell. There are 3 Kubota dealers here and one is only Kubota and doesn't sell any implements. Needless to say he doesn't sell very many tractors to farms. The MF and Case-IH dealer also sell Kubotas but only for their compacts. The MF dealer also sells Landini tractors which are basically the same as SAME but with blue paint. I do not see too many of them around though as this dealer is not very easy to work with which is why there are not very many MF's around either. When his dad ran the place there were Masseys all over this county. Now no one wants to deal with them so they have a very small selection of Landini and Massey tractors but have about 15 Kubota compacts right next to the store. All the other tractors are across the road. The vineyard market is very well suitable for another tractor make to push their way in. New Holland and John Deere have been beating each other up pushing their tractors but both are priced over $40k for a 75- 85 horse FWA, cabbed orchard/vineyard tractor. If someone was to come in and bring this same package for a few thousand less they would sell a lot of them as a lot of the vineyard owners look at the bottom line more so then what dealer is selling the tractor. They just need to keep the tractor under 66" wide.

 

[Travis_R]

HOW DOES THIS SOUND?

1998 Massey Ferguson 231, very good condition, w/ canopy, 485 hrs., fresh oil change, new 2 month old battery w/ receipt, one remote hydraulic, vertical exhaust, black spring suspension seat (not the old grey "pan" style), $8000.00

Man said that if he cleaned it up, it would look as good as a new one on the lot.

I am going to look at it Friday or Saturday. It is about 5 hrs. away. I am bringing my trailer, so you know what that means!

ALSO, i could buy a used 7' Woods bush hog from him for $800.00. He said it was in good condition and comes with an extra set of blades.

WHAT DO YA'LL THINK?

Travis R

 

[Farmwithjunk]

HOW DOES THIS SOUND?

1998 Massey Ferguson 231, very good condition, w/ canopy, 485 hrs., fresh oil change, new 2 month old battery w/ receipt, one remote hydraulic, vertical exhaust, black spring suspension seat (not the old grey "pan" style), $8000.00

Man said that if he cleaned it up, it would look as good as a new one on the lot.

I am going to look at it Friday or Saturday. It is about 5 hrs. away. I am bringing my trailer, so you know what that means!

ALSO, i could buy a used 7' Woods bush hog from him for $800.00. He said it was in good condition and comes with an extra set of blades.

WHAT DO YA'LL THINK?

Travis R

Tractor sound like a good'n by that description. Fair price based on what they sell for here. 7' Wood mower sounds like too much for that tractor. 7'ers are H.E.A.V.Y. compared to a 6'er. A 6' medium or heavy duty Woods would be all you want.

 

[shvl73]

Travis,
Do I remember you saying your truck was a half-ton and your trailer didn't have brakes? Be careful.