Harvey in Haiti

   / Harvey in Haiti #21  
I have a dream. That dream is of an excavator lifting the trash out of the canals and placing it into a large tank. That tank contains a cleaing solution that kills bacteria like ecoli and cholera. Then the trash is rinsed and placed where sorting and processing takes place.

There are some conventional recycling of plastic bottle programs on the island. I've already talked to one about them having processing equipment at this location to pick up the bottles that they want. The really bad stuff like the film and foam plastics will be processed into building blocks for housing. The organic based stuff like paper will be processed into briquettes. Charcoal is the most common cooking fuel here in Haiti.

The big problem for me in this dream is the sanitizing tank. Someone mentioned to me the use of salt water. The ocean is right there. There has to be a salinity level that will kill the bacteria. It would be the most cost effective and natural solution I believe. If you know anyone with the skill set and knowledge to find the answer it would be wonderful.

We want to clean up the plastic trash and provide a way to make the best homes at any price. But we don't want to make Haitians sick doing it.

Just think about a modern septic system. All that is needed to destroy harmful bacteria is to filter the material/sludge through sand. The sand is colonized by various non pathogenic amoeba and bacteria that feed on the pathogens. It can be self sustaining and built above ground. Systems like that are used in many areas that have high water tables. Trouble is getting a set up like that built to scale for a city of two million plus. Pretty soon you are talking about a sewage treatment plant like we have on Deer Island in Boston that cost about a billion bucks. :confused:
 
   / Harvey in Haiti
  • Thread Starter
#22  
Not sure I agree with that. When I was there last year Cite Soleil was openly run by violent gangs and thugs. Urban warlords controlled the place. The local police would not go there at all and the UN security troops would only travel there in heavily armored convoys. We had to have one of our teams extracted by the 82nd Airborne after a dispute over who was calling the shots in a latrine clean up and drainage operation! Maybe things have changed but for a long time Cite Soleil has been a great example of how little authority the Haitian government has even within the capital city and it represented the type of lawless post Armageddon society one usually associates with Mel Gibson's early movies.

Things change. We have three young ladies who work out of here that are better protection at any hour in cite soleil than a convoy of UN troops. I was in cite soleil in a UN car a couple of weeks ago. There was an interesting conversation with some real deal thugs at one point. One of the people with us said the least secure they ever felt in cite soleil was that trip because we were in the UN Toyota Highlander.

There was a God war killing just two days before our visit. One religious charity was having a dispute over a piece of ground with another religious charity. A Haitian head of logistics for one of the charities was gunned down, 14 round statement, in front of witnesses. It seems intentionally or otherwise the gangs became involved and the gang god said his piece.

The Haitians want a hand up and not a hand out for the most part. Ten thousand charities operating before the earthquake have trained Haitians to behave inappropriately by rewarding begging and corruption at all levels. There is now about thirty thousand charities and they have reinforced the concept that bad behavior works.
 
   / Harvey in Haiti
  • Thread Starter
#23  
Just think about a modern septic system. All that is needed to destroy harmful bacteria is to filter the material/sludge through sand. The sand is colonized by various non pathogenic amoeba and bacteria that feed on the pathogens. It can be self sustaining and built above ground. Systems like that are used in many areas that have high water tables. Trouble is getting a set up like that built to scale for a city of two million plus. Pretty soon you are talking about a sewage treatment plant like we have on Deer Island in Boston that cost about a billion bucks. :confused:

Everyone pretty much agrees that our thousand gallons of water to dispose of one gallon of feces is going to go away sooner than later. There isn't enough water on the planet for six billion people to have the sewage facilities of Americans.
 
   / Harvey in Haiti #24  
Harvey around 02 I was running a 400 Komatsu long reach hoe with a basket bucket cleaning up floating debris in the water. After a storm there was alot of tras washed up in a cove on the TN river. THe dirt bucket was about a yard on the original machine but the basket bucket was made from bars stock and about 5 yards. We skimmed several thousands of yards of material in one cove. We had a 5 yard basket clam to but I never got to use it. They also had an elevator pontoon. It was a setr of pontoons with a small duetz on it and it had a frame that looked like an elevator off a paddle wheel scraper but with mill chains. It has small baskets on the paddles that gatherethe materials and dumped them on a big basket on the back. THis was made for weed and polution control pickup. We picked up tons of drift wood and bottles with it.
 
   / Harvey in Haiti
  • Thread Starter
#25  
Harvey around 02 I was running a 400 Komatsu long reach hoe with a basket bucket cleaning up floating debris in the water. After a storm there was alot of tras washed up in a cove on the TN river. THe dirt bucket was about a yard on the original machine but the basket bucket was made from bars stock and about 5 yards. We skimmed several thousands of yards of material in one cove. We had a 5 yard basket clam to but I never got to use it. They also had an elevator pontoon. It was a setr of pontoons with a small duetz on it and it had a frame that looked like an elevator off a paddle wheel scraper but with mill chains. It has small baskets on the paddles that gatherethe materials and dumped them on a big basket on the back. THis was made for weed and polution control pickup. We picked up tons of drift wood and bottles with it.

It wouldn't surprise me to find myself designing and building the bucket. If I do you can be sure I will lean on you for advice.
 
   / Harvey in Haiti #26  
Harvey,
This is all very interesting to follow what you are doing. So with all those charities down there, I gather there is a lot of corruption.
See safe.
hugs, Brandi
 
   / Harvey in Haiti #27  
Harvey you may be leaning on a blind man there lol. I may dig up my parts books to the thing I know it was shop made but I may have some maintenance drawings. The clam was a factory rig. THe excavator bucker was really a stout frame withthe basket welded inside.
 
   / Harvey in Haiti
  • Thread Starter
#28  
Harvey,
This is all very interesting to follow what you are doing. So with all those charities down there, I gather there is a lot of corruption.
See safe.
hugs, Brandi

What's sad Brandi is most of the charities do more harm long term than good.

One of the nice things about being where I was today in the worst part of Port
Au Prince is I don't have children begging. That's because your average person on a mission to save Haiti won't go where I am going to be working. So the kids haven't been trained by the good hearted but stupid as a stump visitor to beg.

Begging embarrasses the Haitians just like it would embarrass you if your or your neighbor's kids begged when out of towners visited your neighborhood. And the only reason the kids beg is because visitors reward them for doing it.

It has been explained to me over and over that the only way you are going to get Haitians to do anything is to pay them to do it. That is understandable when you consider their unemployment rate is staggering and the poverty can only be described as devastating.

I'm living on two meals a day now because they are provided at no cost to me. Supper was a good example, white rice, limited portion, a drumstick cooked to leather which is a good thing because of the flies etc, and a slice of avocado. Breakfast was spaghetti with some hot dog weenies tossed in. I know there was at least two weenies in there because I got two end slices on my plate and the odds are impossible for me to have that kind of good fortune if only one was cut up for the huge bowl of spaghetti.

I cannot pay anyone to work with me. But two thirty five year old Hatians are on me like paint when I move around outside the compound. It is literally like I have a secret service detail. They've worked with me on making blocks and are convinced that our idea is going to be good for Haiti. And this morning when I was invited to attend a meeting of women in one of the worst parts of Cite Soleil they were there with me.

The reason I wanted to talk to the women was I believe they are the most important voice in Haitian society because Haitians are no different from any other society. But here there is a buffer built in between men like me and Haitian women. NGOs have trained a corps of young men who get things done because they speak all the languages of the visitors and of the Haitians. You can't get anything done without them. I found that when I asked them about how the women felt about houses it was like asking any teenage boy what his mom and sisters expected in a house. They don't think about that stuff, they've got boy stuff to deal with already.

I met a young lady yesterday that taught meditation and breathing exercises to these women as part of a program to help PTSD patients. These women all qualify many times over because of the rapes, the poverty, and the earthquake. Families were destroyed in the earthquake because so many died.

She was going back because they had asked her to visit them again if she could. I was invited along and thought it would be a good idea for purely selfish reasons. My thinking was taking advantage of her relationship by being seen with her. That way when I came back with our Ubuntu-blox they would see me a little better than if I showed up out of the blue.

We waited or two hours in the heat and then they called us to the front of the group to talk about Ubuntu-blox. I was just going to do a brief overview and then get out of there to let them do what they were there to do in the first place. I had my two guys who did the interpreting for me and it went south quickly. It was assumed that I was like everyone else and I was going to give them all a house that would never happen.

Tough audience, stiff questions, harsh replies, I was unprepared for the brutal honesty. It was also heart breaking to realize their reality was based upon good meaning people being the cruelest of cruel and never knowing it.

Then we got across the point that I wasn't there to build them a house. I was there to help them build good houses by using the plastic trash all around them. Haitians were going to build the houses, I was there to help them with the design and methods.

It got personal When was I going to help them? Was I going to be back to build houses? Who got the first house? you get the idea.

Then I got lucky I told them about micro financing in Bangladesh and how the women worked together to make lives better for women. I suggested they do the same thing. They can collect the plastic and we'll come in and help them to build the blocks. They figure out who gets the first house and we will all work together to build that house. We do that over and over again until everyone gets a house than can have one. But it is women helping women and that is the only way it will happen. If this didn't work it wouldn't be the government's fault or any NGOs fault. If it failed it would be their fault.

It got personal again. When was I coming back to help them get started making the blocks?

We start next wednesday.
 
   / Harvey in Haiti #29  
Harvey, who owns the land the houses will be built on? If they do not have title to the land, then will the houses actually be built for the land owners?
 
   / Harvey in Haiti #30  
txdon said:
Harvey, who owns the land the houses will be built on? If they do not have title to the land, then will the houses actually be built for the land owners?

Land titles in Haiti are a nightmare. There are often forged titles competing with real ones, the land courts are either nonexistent or politically controlled. The government is too disorganized and powerless to fix the mess. As a result, squatters rule, especially in the anarchy of Port au Prince.
 
   / Harvey in Haiti #31  
One thing you have working for you is the willingness to help themselves. I got hot this april in SMithville Mississippi. A friend of mne and I went down with his church group to clear some debris for the storm victims. We were working on this families housethe second one that we were on that day to folks would point out we missed a few tiny sticks or this and that. About 1/4 way through One left and went to the postoffice and came back wide open. A charity gave away 150 000 to several homes with damages. This family recived 1000 dollars. As soo nas they got it the all ran in and left for Tunica to gamble. Leaving us and their neighbors to clean up their yard.



At that I walked the excavator and skid steer across the road to their neighbors that were helping us at that yard. THey even stuck with us on the next 3 houses we worked on. I like seeing folks that will help themselves.
 
   / Harvey in Haiti
  • Thread Starter
#32  
One thing you have working for you is the willingness to help themselves. I got hot this april in SMithville Mississippi. A friend of mne and I went down with his church group to clear some debris for the storm victims. We were working on this families housethe second one that we were on that day to folks would point out we missed a few tiny sticks or this and that. About 1/4 way through One left and went to the postoffice and came back wide open. A charity gave away 150 000 to several homes with damages. This family recived 1000 dollars. As soo nas they got it the all ran in and left for Tunica to gamble. Leaving us and their neighbors to clean up their yard.



At that I walked the excavator and skid steer across the road to their neighbors that were helping us at that yard. THey even stuck with us on the next 3 houses we worked on. I like seeing folks that will help themselves.

Taylor nailed it.

What I have found is this perfect moment in time for the recycled plastic block house to be initiated in Haiti.

The Haitians realize that times are getting ready to get really hard because their economy is shrinking due to the status change from disaster to development. The world's generosity for helping disaster victims is many times greater than it is to help others develop a better life. The NGOs that do disaster relief are cutting back severely if not leaving. The NGOs that deal with development are struggling with the additional demand upon their services. This is forcing the Haitians to look inwards instead of outwards for help. There seems to be a realization that they are going to have to do this themselves if it is going to get done.

The NGOs at the same time are looking around and literally billions of dollars have touched down in Haiti and then evaporated. They are scrambling to find ways to make the dollars spent bring results.

The need in Haiti hasn't gotten less. It has gotten greater. It's just that we have to work with our heads and not our hearts to make Haiti work as a nation. The best analogy I can think of is dealing with a young adult addict that is our child. Tough love is harder on those giving it than those receiving it.

I wish everyone here had been with me Friday in that meeting with the women at Wharf Jeremy. You would be as filled with hope as I am.

Personal security is a concern for someone who looks like me in a lot of places in Haiti. My personal situation is very humbling. I am on a very small budget. I cannot afford to pay people to be with me when I venture into some of the places I go. However, I have two men who cover me like I'm a dignitary and they are the secret service. Their motivation is they believe in this more than I do. Someone gets too close that shouldn't finds a barrier between us that is subtle but there. They don't make a big deal about it and I try to make it easier on them.
 
   / Harvey in Haiti
  • Thread Starter
#33  
Land titles in Haiti are a nightmare. There are often forged titles competing with real ones, the land courts are either nonexistent or politically controlled. The government is too disorganized and powerless to fix the mess. As a result, squatters rule, especially in the anarchy of Port au Prince.

It's worse than that from some places and not that much of a problem in others. Yet even in the worst parts of Cite Soleil there are abandoned houses that no one touches even though the last occupants might have died in the gang wars five years ago. They are ready for the family to come and claim them when they decide to do so.

You have neighborhoods where people live on less than two dollars a day. This is an economy where a rice lunch will cost you a couple of bucks if you buy it from a street vendor. An irony is there are goats and hogs everywhere. No one touches them even though they might be starving. The deterrent is the respect for spells and power beyond the obvious. I suspect some of the land rights are protected the same way.

At Wharf Jeremy Friday we were ran off from a public playground by a group of women that felt we shouldn't have been there. They followed us like yapping dogs until we were clear of their territory. I never did figure out if it was a religion thing or just a neighborhood watch deal on steroids. My guys explained it to me with nervous laughs about it being a "woman thing". I imagine anyone not part of that homeowners association would find life extremely difficult in that neighborhood.
 
   / Harvey in Haiti #34  
I think of all the stuff that gets chunked at the rubbish landfill at work thats still usable. I have to compact what I cant haul home. I tink what person like you could do with all that wood there. I have a freind thats wanting to start building and donating rocket stoves. He has access to a plac that uses 2 pre bent tubes that scraps alot. I told him of your blocks and work in Haiti and it got him stirring.
 
   / Harvey in Haiti #35  
Personal security is a concern for someone who looks like me in a lot of places in Haiti. My personal situation is very humbling. I am on a very small budget. I cannot afford to pay people to be with me when I venture into some of the places I go. However, I have two men who cover me like I'm a dignitary and they are the secret service. Their motivation is they believe in this more than I do. Someone gets too close that shouldn't finds a barrier between us that is subtle but there. They don't make a big deal about it and I try to make it easier on them.
Harvey,
I'm sure there must be a plan for the use of your plastic compressor box but so far has not been addressed in this forum.
I am wondering who is going to own, operate, maintain, and secure your device from being stolen for the metal value versus the functional value when you leave? How many blocks per 24 hour day can be produced by one of your compressors and who will own, sell, or distribute the blocks and for how much? Is there any plan to use links and levers to move the compression plate quickly rather than the screw and steering wheel or a plan to motorize the mechanical motion?
 
   / Harvey in Haiti #36  
I though he (harv) said they needed it "off the grid" so I think the plan was to keep it people power.
 
   / Harvey in Haiti
  • Thread Starter
#37  
The machine everything is open source so anyone can do anything they want with the information except claim intellectual property protection. When I made it open source I even made it where I can't claim intellectual property protection.

That said, anyone can do what they want to make it more efficient. All I've asked is if they do they share the information with the rest of us.

The machines I've made here were made from materials that anywhere else would be in the scrap yard destined for the furnace. It was what had to be done because of budgetary constraints. But it turned out to be a good thing because Haitian welders are just like welders everywhere. They will see what I've done and know they could do better. I've removed the arguments about correct materials from the discussion.

As for security, that is not an issue. I believe that is covered.
 
   / Harvey in Haiti #38  
I though he (harv) said they needed it "off the grid" so I think the plan was to keep it people power.

I missed that.
My thought was that compound links and levers might be easier to make than
wheels and screws and be faster to operate. Of course there is always friction to worry about. Harv is there and was involved in making test machines back in the states in April so they have probably figured out the
best way for now. He is getting more hits on this thread than on welding so
progress is being made.
 
   / Harvey in Haiti #39  
I have a dream. That dream is of an excavator lifting the trash out of the canals and placing it into a large tank. That tank contains a cleaing solution that kills bacteria like ecoli and cholera. Then the trash is rinsed and placed where sorting and processing takes place.

There are some conventional recycling of plastic bottle programs on the island. I've already talked to one about them having processing equipment at this location to pick up the bottles that they want. The really bad stuff like the film and foam plastics will be processed into building blocks for housing. The organic based stuff like paper will be processed into briquettes. Charcoal is the most common cooking fuel here in Haiti.

The big problem for me in this dream is the sanitizing tank. Someone mentioned to me the use of salt water. The ocean is right there. There has to be a salinity level that will kill the bacteria. It would be the most cost effective and natural solution I believe. If you know anyone with the skill set and knowledge to find the answer it would be wonderful.

We want to clean up the plastic trash and provide a way to make the best homes at any price. But we don't want to make Haitians sick doing it.

I don't think salt water has any anti-bacterial properties. After all when there is a sewage spill in to the ocean in SoCal they have to close the beaches if the concentration is high enough.

You might be able to use seawater for an initial wash-down. Something like a trammel with pressure washer type nozzles in it to blast the bulk of the unwanted materials off the outside of the plastic items. After that I would think you need some type of conventional solution like bleach, iodine, chlorine etc. to finish the job in your tank as the insides of bottles etc will still be contaminated. If the plan is simply to get them clean enough to sort and they will be shred and pieces cleaned again later the trammel might get them clean enough for that.


I do have a question about the plastic blocks. How are the houses constructed such that wire failure on the blocks doesn't cause problems? I would think in a tropical environment with potential for salt the wire would fail after some period of time.
 
   / Harvey in Haiti #40  
Charlz is correct. Salt water is not an effective biocide. Heat is. Moist heat is quite effective. For practical purposes you need some pressure too but an old fashion gravity autoclave might be constructed from 55 gallon drums. I've seen it done in third world hospitals and it does work. The concern in Haiti would be inadequate supervision which could be dangerous. A safer alternative is simply to Pasturize the garbage. Look up the standards. 150 degrees for twenty or thirty minutes would do it (check my memory on the standards). You don't even have to bring the plastic soup to a boil.

The other consideration is that just soap and water should be sufficient to
make the blocks safe to handle. Who cares if there are live pathogens sealed and trapped inside? They are building blocks not dinner plates. To go an extra step just dunk the completed blocks into a 1:1000 solution of chlorine bleach for a few minutes.
 

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