Sigarms
Super Member
I just figured the wife gave in
Has anyone bought a FNAR 308 rifle ? looking for feedback
- Thread starter westcliffe01
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I just figured the wife gave in
Jon Deer
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- JD x585
Hmmm - they call it Felony conviction... but, which felony crime ?
Oh ya, do you plan on mounting a rifle rack onto a John Deere or Kubota or something else... then I guess I'd see how it might fall into the realm of things here.
Oh ya, do you plan on mounting a rifle rack onto a John Deere or Kubota or something else... then I guess I'd see how it might fall into the realm of things here.
OP
westcliffe01
Veteran Member
Wow, speculation gets going if one stays away from the thread for a few days...
My "crime" was being a "non immigrant worker" in other words I was in Michigan working on an L1A (company transfer) work permit. Non resident aliens are not permitted any form of firearm ownership. There seems to be a little wiggle room regarding hunting, but Michigan law is very specific regarding non US Citizens and it took a supreme court decision to allow Legal Permanent Residents to be allowed firearm ownership. Having just obtained my "green card" a few weeks ago, I am free to enjoy firearm ownership once again...
3 years prior to my arrival on US soil, I was working in Germany, also on a non resident status, so no possibility of firearm ownership either. I can't say I investigated it too much in Germany, since it was such a safe place and I was not in a "click" with any of the local hunters either... Having been through their driving license procedure (cost about $2000), I can only imagine what it takes if you want to own hunting weapons and have a hunting permit.
In my country of birth (South Africa) I owned firearms until I left in 2000. Firearm ownership has meanwhile (predictably) been drastically curtailed and it would probably be a battle to own a handgun today. I spent 2 years in the armed services in Namibia and Angola and our enemy was supported by East Germans, Russians and over 30 000 Cubans, along with arms, armor, anti aircraft missiles, Gunships and Migs from Russia. I personally carried a .223 adaption of the Israeli Galil, and was quite mad that the 308 caliber FN rifles had been retired shortly before I served. We trained with the FN Fal rifles as well as the later Armscor Galil copies.
Being in the engineering corps and with the majority of my time spent on landmine clearing, my shirts had very characteristic wear marks from the angular contours of the Galil rifle, since we carried then across the back when walking with the metal detector in the hand. The FN rifle was far more comfortable to carry, but without the folding stock it was a bit more clumsy to handle inside a mineproofed vehicle.
Long story, but many who have served in foreign armed services regard the FAL as one of the best rifles ever made and at least in the US, have the possibility of owning your own copy. Regarding this thread, it seemed that a modern civilian version of the FN (the FNAR) was potentially less expensive than the US made copies of the FAL (although I have meanwhile discovered that DPMS rifles are less expensive or at least comparable).
My "crime" was being a "non immigrant worker" in other words I was in Michigan working on an L1A (company transfer) work permit. Non resident aliens are not permitted any form of firearm ownership. There seems to be a little wiggle room regarding hunting, but Michigan law is very specific regarding non US Citizens and it took a supreme court decision to allow Legal Permanent Residents to be allowed firearm ownership. Having just obtained my "green card" a few weeks ago, I am free to enjoy firearm ownership once again...
3 years prior to my arrival on US soil, I was working in Germany, also on a non resident status, so no possibility of firearm ownership either. I can't say I investigated it too much in Germany, since it was such a safe place and I was not in a "click" with any of the local hunters either... Having been through their driving license procedure (cost about $2000), I can only imagine what it takes if you want to own hunting weapons and have a hunting permit.
In my country of birth (South Africa) I owned firearms until I left in 2000. Firearm ownership has meanwhile (predictably) been drastically curtailed and it would probably be a battle to own a handgun today. I spent 2 years in the armed services in Namibia and Angola and our enemy was supported by East Germans, Russians and over 30 000 Cubans, along with arms, armor, anti aircraft missiles, Gunships and Migs from Russia. I personally carried a .223 adaption of the Israeli Galil, and was quite mad that the 308 caliber FN rifles had been retired shortly before I served. We trained with the FN Fal rifles as well as the later Armscor Galil copies.
Being in the engineering corps and with the majority of my time spent on landmine clearing, my shirts had very characteristic wear marks from the angular contours of the Galil rifle, since we carried then across the back when walking with the metal detector in the hand. The FN rifle was far more comfortable to carry, but without the folding stock it was a bit more clumsy to handle inside a mineproofed vehicle.
Long story, but many who have served in foreign armed services regard the FAL as one of the best rifles ever made and at least in the US, have the possibility of owning your own copy. Regarding this thread, it seemed that a modern civilian version of the FN (the FNAR) was potentially less expensive than the US made copies of the FAL (although I have meanwhile discovered that DPMS rifles are less expensive or at least comparable).
Jon Deer
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patrick_g
Elite Member
OP
westcliffe01
Veteran Member
I was informed here: US gun laws for non-citizens since the actual law is impossible for most ordinary people to read.
Quote:
Federal Issues:
In general, non-immigrant aliens are forbidden to possess any firearms or ammunition. But there is a big exception for a legal alien who: ...is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States
(See Title 18, USC Chapter 44, Section 922, part(2) for details.)
Green-card holders and immigrant aliens who do not yet have their green card are both okay under federal law, although many people (including gun dealers, law enforcement officers, etc.) are not aware of the distinction or the hunting license exception, and erroneously think that either you have a green card, or you can't have guns.
Also, non-citizen cannot purchase a firearm from a federally licensed firerams dealer unless they have been a resident of their state for 90 days. So, no, tourists on short visits cannot walk into guns stores to get "protection" during their trip. Sorry. (I've been asked that multiple times.)
and:
Michigan:
Michigan law is a bit of a mess! It says:
a person shall not purchase, carry, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section
One of the requirements for getting such a license is:
The person is a citizen of the United States and is a legal resident of this state
However, that requirement was struck down as unconstitutional (on equal protection grounds) by the Michigan Court of Appeals. (See Chan v City of Troy, 220 Mich App 376.) However, it hasn't formally been repealed by the legislature yet.
You don't need that license, though, if you get a concealed-carry license:
An individual who is licensed under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol is not required to obtain a license under section 2 to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.
However, such a license is only issued to a Michigan resident who is a citizen or:
a resident legal alien as defined in section 11 of title 18 of the United States Code
The confusing thing is that section 11 of title 18 has nothing at all to do with defining resident legal aliens! It's not clear to me whether this is supposed to be referring only to legal permanent resident aliens or all legal resident aliens.
For out-of-staters, things are confusing, too! The requirement for a pistol license does not apply to:
A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.
That gives non-Michigan-resident non-citizens no relief. However, we also have:
The requirements of this act for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol do not apply to any of the following:
...
A resident of another state who is licensed by that state to carry a concealed pistol.
Wow. The long and short of it is that I can't figure out what is and isn't legal or required or whatever for non-citizens when in Michigan. Read the firearms laws (Act 372 of 1927) yourself and consult a lawyer, and use extreme caution!
End quote.
Back in the early days, most immigrants may not have survived if they were denied self protection for 7 years. If my assignment had been in Detroit as opposed to rural SE Michigan, I don't think I could have accepted such a restriction since the city is a pretty dangerous place. I may not agree with it, but it is the law. Since any firearms related offense is going to be pretty severe and a non immigrant worker is likely to be deported for relatively minor offenses, I had to accept the limitations imposed by the statute. Fortunately for me, I didn't get into a situation with armed thugs, but if I had, I may have become a statistic.
I had a thread earlier here http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/front-porch/193439-milestone-me-here-us.html regarding my expensive Green card process.
Just to be clear, the L1A work permit / visa has about the longest duration (7 years) of any available and the least complicated application process, since you already had to work for the US based company for a minimum of 3 years prior to being transferred. The more common H1B visas basically require you to prove that you are superman, before you might be granted resident status and only last 6 years, I believe.
Quote:
Federal Issues:
In general, non-immigrant aliens are forbidden to possess any firearms or ammunition. But there is a big exception for a legal alien who: ...is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States
(See Title 18, USC Chapter 44, Section 922, part
(2) for details.)Green-card holders and immigrant aliens who do not yet have their green card are both okay under federal law, although many people (including gun dealers, law enforcement officers, etc.) are not aware of the distinction or the hunting license exception, and erroneously think that either you have a green card, or you can't have guns.
Also, non-citizen cannot purchase a firearm from a federally licensed firerams dealer unless they have been a resident of their state for 90 days. So, no, tourists on short visits cannot walk into guns stores to get "protection" during their trip. Sorry. (I've been asked that multiple times.)
and:
Michigan:
Michigan law is a bit of a mess! It says:
a person shall not purchase, carry, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section
One of the requirements for getting such a license is:
The person is a citizen of the United States and is a legal resident of this state
However, that requirement was struck down as unconstitutional (on equal protection grounds) by the Michigan Court of Appeals. (See Chan v City of Troy, 220 Mich App 376.) However, it hasn't formally been repealed by the legislature yet.
You don't need that license, though, if you get a concealed-carry license:
An individual who is licensed under section 5b to carry a concealed pistol is not required to obtain a license under section 2 to purchase, carry, or transport a pistol.
However, such a license is only issued to a Michigan resident who is a citizen or:
a resident legal alien as defined in section 11 of title 18 of the United States Code
The confusing thing is that section 11 of title 18 has nothing at all to do with defining resident legal aliens! It's not clear to me whether this is supposed to be referring only to legal permanent resident aliens or all legal resident aliens.
For out-of-staters, things are confusing, too! The requirement for a pistol license does not apply to:
A United States citizen holding a license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by another state.
That gives non-Michigan-resident non-citizens no relief. However, we also have:
The requirements of this act for obtaining a license to carry a concealed pistol do not apply to any of the following:
...
A resident of another state who is licensed by that state to carry a concealed pistol.
Wow. The long and short of it is that I can't figure out what is and isn't legal or required or whatever for non-citizens when in Michigan. Read the firearms laws (Act 372 of 1927) yourself and consult a lawyer, and use extreme caution!
End quote.
Back in the early days, most immigrants may not have survived if they were denied self protection for 7 years. If my assignment had been in Detroit as opposed to rural SE Michigan, I don't think I could have accepted such a restriction since the city is a pretty dangerous place. I may not agree with it, but it is the law. Since any firearms related offense is going to be pretty severe and a non immigrant worker is likely to be deported for relatively minor offenses, I had to accept the limitations imposed by the statute. Fortunately for me, I didn't get into a situation with armed thugs, but if I had, I may have become a statistic.
I had a thread earlier here http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/front-porch/193439-milestone-me-here-us.html regarding my expensive Green card process.
Just to be clear, the L1A work permit / visa has about the longest duration (7 years) of any available and the least complicated application process, since you already had to work for the US based company for a minimum of 3 years prior to being transferred. The more common H1B visas basically require you to prove that you are superman, before you might be granted resident status and only last 6 years, I believe.
OP
westcliffe01
Veteran Member
The short answer is: Yes. No conviction, no criminal record, passed all background checks, served with allied forces against the soviets, but not permitted firearm ownership until at least a permanent resident in the US. US sponsor companies generally will wait until the "last minute" of your non resident status to file for resident status, since you do not enjoy the same rights as US citizens in the interim. My case proceeded in the same way as many before me.
Robb71
Bronze Member
I'm glad you cleared that eligibility thing up. I was a bit leery to offer advice as it kinda sounded like you might have been a felon.
I'm a huge fan of the FN FAL also and have one FN built gun and several DSA built copies myself.
You might be surprised to learn that it is possible to find a good FAL copy for about the same or less than the FNAR. If you plan to acquire more than a mag or two you'll certainly do better than the FNAR as it's magazines are very expensive.
You could look for a DSA STG58, they come in 16, 18, and 21 inch barrel lengths. You should be able to pick up a new one for around $1200.
Here are a few examples in that price range.
DSA STG58 Austrian FAL Carbine Rifle, .308 Cal NIB : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com
DSA FAL STG58 Austrian Standard Rifle .308CAL NIB : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com
DSA STG58 18" .308 Win Carbine New Arvada CO : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com
The FNAR is a fine rifle but it is based on a Browning sporting rifle called the BAR and might not suit someone who knows the feel of an FN FAL.
I'm a huge fan of the FN FAL also and have one FN built gun and several DSA built copies myself.
You might be surprised to learn that it is possible to find a good FAL copy for about the same or less than the FNAR. If you plan to acquire more than a mag or two you'll certainly do better than the FNAR as it's magazines are very expensive.
You could look for a DSA STG58, they come in 16, 18, and 21 inch barrel lengths. You should be able to pick up a new one for around $1200.
Here are a few examples in that price range.
DSA STG58 Austrian FAL Carbine Rifle, .308 Cal NIB : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com
DSA FAL STG58 Austrian Standard Rifle .308CAL NIB : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com
DSA STG58 18" .308 Win Carbine New Arvada CO : Semi-auto at GunBroker.com
The FNAR is a fine rifle but it is based on a Browning sporting rifle called the BAR and might not suit someone who knows the feel of an FN FAL.
OP
westcliffe01
Veteran Member
In the short term, since varmint hunting is the only kind of hunting on the agenda (at least for a while) I bought this:
I have been reading several varmint hunting sites and one of then recommended the (now discontinued) Savage model 24 combination rifle. I read about it here: http://www.wcp-nm.com/coyotes/weaponry.htm The one I got is a 20 gauge shotgun with a 222 barrel above. It was not expensive, recoil should be mild and I can try to get my wife interested in learning to shoot for self defense if nothing else. I do have a lot of coyotes in my neighborhood, including one that has come within 2 feet of my basement door, so if he keep coming around, he might get some buckshot where he doesn't want it...
For later, I did find this: http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/793/products_id/61635
Last sold for $920, but I think the price just went up to a little over $1k. I have found many pages meanwhile detailing how to camouflage your own rifle, and I will probably do that.
I have been reading several varmint hunting sites and one of then recommended the (now discontinued) Savage model 24 combination rifle. I read about it here: http://www.wcp-nm.com/coyotes/weaponry.htm The one I got is a 20 gauge shotgun with a 222 barrel above. It was not expensive, recoil should be mild and I can try to get my wife interested in learning to shoot for self defense if nothing else. I do have a lot of coyotes in my neighborhood, including one that has come within 2 feet of my basement door, so if he keep coming around, he might get some buckshot where he doesn't want it...
For later, I did find this: http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/793/products_id/61635
Robb71
Bronze Member
The Savage is a nice little do everything gun, my brother had one in .22/.410 when we were kids. I think you'll be pleased with it.
If you really want to get into AR-10 rifles the forum to hang out in is ar15.com. The general discussion section can get really rowdy and you'll need a thick skin, but the AR-10 sub-forum is where you can get a good answer to any question you have might have.
Like any place you have to separate those who know what they are talking about from those that talk about, but the knowlegable members are really good at keeping the knuckleheads from giving out bad information.
If you really want to get into AR-10 rifles the forum to hang out in is ar15.com. The general discussion section can get really rowdy and you'll need a thick skin, but the AR-10 sub-forum is where you can get a good answer to any question you have might have.
Like any place you have to separate those who know what they are talking about from those that talk about, but the knowlegable members are really good at keeping the knuckleheads from giving out bad information.
