Heart Healthy Eating

[piller]

piller,

To each his own, but you are distorting the facts. The Masai men that you are referring to may not have had "heart disease" in the sense of not having narrowed coronary arteries. But, if you read the data you'll find their arteries had such severe atherosclerosis that at autopsy they were the equivalent of US old men. And the average life expectancy in Kenya is 50 years (at the time of the original study). If you remove the high infant mortality rate the adjusted life expectancy was 60 years. The atherosclerosis is masked by their exceptional physical fitness which causes their coronary arteries to dilate over time. What all this means is that the Masai have underlying terrible heart disease which is masked, by their high exercise and low life expectancy. "Most Westerners would have to walk roughly 20 km a day to achieve the Masai level of energy expenditure."

Regular Walking Protects The Masai -- Who Eat High Fat Diet -- From Cardiovascular Disease

Here's one of the original articles discussing the Masai from back in the early 1970's:
ATHEROSCLEROSIS IN THE MASAI

No attempt at distortion here.

Exercise is a good thing, I won't argue with that. I think that we agree that the studies show no sign of heart disease in the Masai.

Now, you mention atherosclerosis. The link that you provided I was not able to access, apparently they want you to pay for the information.

I found a blog posting however that was interesting, I believe that it discusses the studies you mention, it said:

"There appears to be a pattern here. Either the Masai men are eating nothing but milk, meat and blood and they're nearly free from atherosclerosis, or they're eating however they please and they have as much atherosclerosis as the average American. There doesn't seem to be much in between ".

This information was found here:
Whole Health Source: Masai and Atherosclerosis

Your comments are welcomed.

 

[schweizer]

I just checked both of those links again and they work from my laptop and I haven't paid to get on any of those sites.

Again, "heart disease" that you are referring to is narrowing of the arteries as evidenced by visualization by angiogram, autopsy, or inferred indirectly by lack of EKG changes. Therefore, there was no evidence of myocardial infarction, that is, death of heart muscle. "Atherosclerosis" is what is causes that "heart disease". Note that the original research (the larger study from the 1970's) on the Masai found significant atherosclerosis in them, but they were protected by the vessels enlarging due to exercise -- 20 km per day worth of exercise! The clogging agent was still there but the plumbing got bigger. It's all semantics, I guess. I see it as they still have heart disease but not manifesting.

Look, here's one of the largest studies ever done on vegetarianism, finding direct links statistically between meat consumption and coronary artery disease:
Animal product consumption and mortality beca... [Am J Clin Nutr. 1988] - PubMed - NCBI
There are many other studies, too. Like I posted earlier in this thread, you take the combined data available in science not just a small cohort, like a small study of the Masai cheating death w/ terrible diet.

I'm just saying if you want to optimize your health, you eat right, exercise, and don't smoke. Part of the eating right is cutting down or eliminating meat and animal product consumption when other food is statistically better to eat. Eating a terrible diet can be compensated for by a tremendous amount of exercise, for a while. Maybe that's why people 100's of years ago didn't get the amount of heart disease w/ have today. Or maybe they did but just didn't manifest it because they died of other things first, like infections, wars, or even the plague!

Yes, I'll agree (after a quick search tonight), there are several studies which don't find much association between milk consumption and mortality.

Marcus

 

[Egon]

Picking the right genetics may do wonders as well.:thumbsup:

 

[brin]

Picking the right genetics may do wonders as well.:thumbsup:

Egon....That is my point exactly....even TexasDon says his brother can eat anything he wants with no ill effect...I have friends that are the same way.. I have one friend that is overweight and eats all the wrong things ..yet his cholesterol is real low , so is his blood pressure, no diabetes and he passes every physical exam with flying colors..just good genetics...He is also in his 60's

 

[brin]

Here is a health Vegan soup recipe...you can eliminate the olive oil if so desired.


Spicy Kale Soup with Roasted Pepper and Tomato | cooking on the weekends

 

[beppington]

We're about to make our 2nd batch of Quinoa :thumbsup:

 

[schweizer]

Totally agreed about genetics but you can't do anything about what your parents gave you. (Genetic engineering anyone? )

I'm tall & thin and can eat quite a bit without gaining weight, but my wife runs every day to keep off the pounds. My family has bad history of heart disease and diabetes. I'm only 38 and my cholesterol is over 200. All I can do is eat better (which I'm not that good at except for vegetarian), and exercise more.

 

[txdon]

I learned something new.

The heart scan (calcium scan) I took, which was very accurate for me by predicting a heart incident within in 5 years, (had my heart attack after 4 years) does not show the plaque build up until it turns harder to calcium.

There is one person down here who had zero on the calcium score but had to undergo bypass surgery for plaque occlusion.

I told my brother to be careful because his arteries may not be as clear as the test indicated. He said he changed to eating oatmeal for breakfast and dropped his cholesterol 20 points.
________________
Brin, I have about 20 plants of kale just waiting to be picked. The kale soup sounds good!
_______________
Piller, even though the title to the thread is "Heart Healthy Eating" my first post expanded on the tittle. The purpose of this thread is for people who have risk factors or genetics that could lead to heart disease or have heart disease and are willing to modify their diet to head off a procedure or a heart attack or are recovering from a heart attack or procedure.


The way that it is done on this thread is by reducing the fats way down and eating no cholesterol/animal products . Every cell in our body is capable of making cholesterol, (from food with a carbon molecule) and of course the liver is a mega cholesterol factory.

Genetics determines what the body does with extra cholesterol. For some like me (crappy genetics) get atherosclerosis, which is heart disease when the vessels with plaque are in the heart. The inflammation caused first by the cholesterol and then the buildup occurs, forming the plaque, and then if the plaque ruptures a clot forms in the artery and deprives part of the the heart muscle of blood. The pain when part of the heart is dying from this occlusion is sometimes the first indication of heart disease. The heart's electrical system will start to fail without the blood circulation and then death. If there is intervention within 2 hours the possibility of heart damage is less. for me there was an intervention after 3 hours - clot removal and stent placement.

Now what?

That's why the tread was started.

With over 4 million people in the USA with atherosclerosis I am not not alone.

The problem, even with heart patients, and I mean almost all heart patients, is that they cannot associate good meaty/fat food being one of the causes of their problem. They will try to find other things and studies to prove they do not have to change their eating habits. But even the Atkins diet which boast it will reduce cholesterol (and it might for a short time as the body adjust) has a warning for heart patients saying to to do it over 6 months - because there have been no long term studies. There has been a lawsuit against the Atkins diet for causing heart disease in one dieter. The lawsuit was thrown out because Atkins did not make the man eat it, it was his free will.

There is no common sense, only knowledge.
I really think Schweizer said it best "you take the combined data available in science not just a small cohort".


Below are just a few of the studies from the Ornish web site and there are many more from Esselstyn, McDougal, Gould, PCRM, Campbell, etc....

But how many studies does a person need? For people who want to do something like eat all the meat they want usually - one for meat. For people who want to eat meat there are no number of studies that to them can prove otherwise. So there is really no use debating. All I can agree on is that eating a cholesterol filled high fat diet will kill me sooner, and some people with good genes are not affected by diet.

If you are in the good gene pool I am happy for you, anything you eat would be "heart healthy" - this thread is for the bad gene people and are struggling with the lifestyle changes that come with heart disease.

Studies:
Ornish D, Scherwitz L, Billings J, et al. Intensive lifestyle changes for reversal of coronary heart disease Five-year follow-up of the Lifestyle Heart Trial. Journal of the American Medical Association. 1998; 280: 2001-2007

Ornish D, Brown SE, Scherwitz LW, et al. Can lifestyle changes reverse coronary atherosclerosis? The Lifestyle Heart Trial. The Lancet. 1990; 336: 129-133

Gould KL, Ornish D, Scherwitz L, et al. Changes in myocardial perfusion abnormalities by positron emission tomography after long-term, intense risk factor modification. Journal of the American Medical Association. 1995; 274: 894-901.

Pischke CR, Weidner G, Scherwitz L, Ornish D. Long-term effects of lifestyle changes on well-being and cardiac variables among CHD patients. Health Psychology, 2008; 27(5): 584-592

Schulz U, Pischke CR, Weidner G, Daubenmier JJ, Elliott-Eller M, Scherwitz L, Bullinger M, Ornish D. Social support group attendance is related to blood pressure, health behaviors, and quality of life in the Multicenter Lifestyle Demonstration Project. Psychology, Health, and Medicine, 2008; 13(4): 423-37

Frattaroli J, Weidner G, Merritt-Worden T, Frenda S, Ornish D. Reductions in angina symptoms and improvements in risk factors in the Multisite Cardiac Lifestyle Intervention Program: Results from the 12-week follow-up. American Journal of Cardiology, 2008; 101: 911-18

Pischke CR, Weidner G, Elliott-Eller M, Ornish D. Lifestyle changes and clinical profile in CHD patients with ejection fraction <40% and >40% in the Multicenter Lifestyle Demonstration Project. European Journal of Heart Failure, 2007; 9: 928-34

Dewell A, Ornish D. Plant-based dietary patterns in the control of obesity and cardiovascular risk. Current Cardiovascular Risk Reports, 2007; 1: 9-15

Daubenmier JJ, Weidner G, Sumner MD, Mendell N, Merritt-Worden T, Studley J, Ornish D. The contribution of changes in diet, exercise, and stress management to changes in coronary risk in women and men in the Multisite Cardiac Lifestyle Intervention Program. Annals of Behavioral Medicine, 2007; 33(1): 57-68

Pischke CR, Weidner G, Elliot-Eller M, Scherwitz L, Merritt-Worden TA, Marlin R, Lipsenthal L, Finkel R, Saunders D, McCormac P, Scheer JM, Collins RE, Guarneri EM, Ornish D. Comparison of coronary risk factors and quality of life in coronary artery disease patients with--vs--without diabetes mellitus. American Journal of Cardiology, 2006; 97(9): 1267-1273

Pischke CR, Marlin R, Weidner G, Chi C, Ornish D. The role of lifestyle in secondary prevention of coronary heart disease in patients with type 2 diabetes. Canadian Journal of Diabetes, 2006; 30(2): 176-182

Sumner MD, Elliott-Eller M, Weidner G, et al. Effects of pomegranate juice consumption on myocardial perfusion in patients with ischemic coronary heart disease: A randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind study. American Journal of Cardiology. 2005; 96: 810?14

Koertge J, Weidner G, Elliott-Eller M, et al. Improvement in medical risk factors and quality of life in women and men with coronary artery disease in the Multicenter Lifestyle Demonstration Project. American Journal of Cardiology. 2003; 91: 1316-1322

Ornish D. Concise Review: Intensive lifestyle changes in the management of coronary heart disease. In: Braunwald E, et al, eds. Harrisonç—´ Principles of Internal Medicine (online) 1999

Ornish D. Avoiding revascularization with lifestyle changes: The Multicenter Lifestyle Demonstration Project. American Journal of Cardiology. 1998; 82: 72T-76T

Ornish D. Dietary treatment of hyperlipidemia. Journal of Cardiovascular Risk. 1994; 1: 283-286

Scherwitz L, Ornish D. The impact of major lifestyle changes on coronary stenosis, CHD risk factors, and psychological status: results from the San Francisco Lifestyle Heart Trial. Homeostasis. 1994; 35: 190-204

Ornish D. Can lifestyle changes reverse coronary heart disease? World Review of Nutrition and Dietetics. 1993; 72: 38-48

Ornish D. Can atherosclerosis regress? Cardiovascular Risk Factors. 1992; 2(4): 276-281

Gould KL, Ornish D, Kirkeeide R, et al. Improved stenosis geometry by quantitative coronary arteriography after vigorous risk factor modification. American Journal of Cardiology. 1992; 69: 845-853

Barnard N, Scherwitz L, Ornish D. Adherence and acceptability of a low-fat, vegetarian diet among cardiac patients. Journal of Cardiopulmonary Rehabilitation. 1992; 12: 423-431

Ornish D. Lessons from the Lifestyle Heart Trial. Choices in Cardiology. 1991; 1(5): 1-4

Ornish D. Reversing heart disease through diet, exercise, and stress management. Journal of the American Dietetic Association. 1991; 91: 162-5

Ornish D. Can you prevent-- and reverse-- coronary artery disease? Patient Care. 1991; 25:25-41

Scherwitz L, Graham LE, Ornish DM. Self-involvement and the risk factors for coronary heart disease. Advances. 1985; 2: 6-18

Scherwitz L, Graham LE, Ornish DM. Self-involvement and the risk factors for coronary heart disease. Advances. 1985; 2: 6-18

Sacks FM, Ornish DM, Rosner B, McLanahan S, Castelli WP, Kass EH. Dietary predictors of blood pressure and plasma lipoproteins in lactovegetarians. Journal of the American Medical Association. 1985; 254: 1337-1341

Ornish DM, Scherwitz LW, Doody RS, et al. Effects of stress management training and dietary changes in treating ischemic heart disease. Journal of the American Medical Association. 1983; 249: 54-59

Ornish DM. Mind/heart interactions: for better and for worse. Health Values. 1978; 2: 266-269

 

[schweizer]

txdon,

Yes, calcium scoring has its drawbacks. You can have severe plaque buildup without calcification.

You gave a great description of what happens with heart attacks, even about the ruptured plaques! But I think you underestimate the amount of atherosclerosis in the general population. I would favor a slightly different description: almost everyone has some degree of atherosclerosis -- your genetic makeup is just one modifying factor of how severe it is. Out of all the abdominal and pelvic CT scans I read yesterday, nearly every one had some atherosclerotic calcification of the abdominal aorta, some quite extensive. (Calc is just easier to see than the soft plaque.) Short aside: In medical school anatomy class, when you dissect cadavers (which are mostly old people) you find that calcification makes the vessels rock hard, literally like lead pipes. Sometimes, on old people w/ severe osteoporosis we joke that the calcified aorta is holding the person upright (instead of the vertebral bodies)!

I admire your dedication to your diet plan. You will undoubtably become healthier. On the other hand, I do see flaws with the Ornish diet: it is very strict in eliminating fats, and it is unsustainable. Its rigidity will turn off many people within weeks.

Here is one big point I disagree with him on: eliminating avocados, olives, nuts and seeds. (And I don't even like olives.) There is strong evidence that the fat in seeds and nuts (and fish) is protective against coronary heart disease in both epidemiological studies and clinical trials. These natural, polyunsaturated and monounsaturated oils actually protect against cardiovascular incidents.

Examples of prominent people in the field of nutrition that are critical of the Ornish diet: Robert H. Eckel, MD, former chair of the nutrition committee of the American Heart Association and a professor at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, and Frank Hu, MD, PhD from Harvard School of Public Health.

On the other hand, "His diet is one of the only popular diet plans that is firmly rooted in science. It not only brings weight loss without counting calories, but it also brings good overall health. It reverses heart disease, cuts the risk of cancer, makes diabetes and hypertension more manageable, and sometimes even makes them go away."

Remember, when the diet is extremely low in fats, you have to make up for volume in fiber, protein, and carbohydrates. Complex carbs are good, fiber is great, and most people already get *plenty* of protein in their diets. I am an advocate for a more balanced diet than the Ornish diet, with more of the natural polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fats that he doesn't allow for, while still keeping fat under 20%. When it all comes to weight gain and loss, it's still a matter of calories in vs. calories out, and that's totally dependent on your underlying metabolism and amount of exercise. Overall, I promote the CHIP plan more than specific "diets". I believe in more of a whole lifestyle/behavior modification -- whole body approach. Don't take this post the wrong way -- the Ornish approach works, I just like one plan better than the other.

Marcus

 

[Piston]

I just ran across this thread as I was looking for some 'land clearing' threads to read.

It's ironic I came across this as just yesterday I got a "wellness" test done and found out I have high cholesterol at only age 30! My LDL cholesterol is 190 and high cholesterol runs in my family. My father, uncles, and grandfather are all on cholesterol medication. I don't like the idea of taking medication if I don't have to and I started looking for meals and foods to eat that are low in cholesterol. I will refer back to this thread for some interesting recipee ideas.

I'm in great health otherwise and really don't eat poorly. I rarely ever eat fried food and never eat fast food. My wife and I have always tried to stay away from processed foods and are big believers in organically grown foods.

I was surprised to find my cholesterol so high at such a young age. Prior to starting to research a bit yesterday and today, I didn't even know what types of foods have a lot of cholesterol in them! I'm just starting to learn some alternative eating habits and am excited to try out some new meals. Thanks for posting all your experiences and opinions as it really gets people thinking. :thumbsup:

-Matt