Help choosing a welder

canoetrpr · Apr 12, 2008

This has been an interesting thread.

While comparing Lincoln welders at the local Lowes I noticed that the input current on the tombstone 225 AC arc machine was 50 A while the input current on the Lincoln 180 Mig/Flux core (also a 230 volt) was only 20A.

My workshop has only only 40A coming in. I imagine that my best will be to get a Mig machine (one day when the $$$$ allow it!)

What do you guys think of the Lincoln 180 for a hobby farm workshop for working around the tractor and implements and other general farm stuff? I doubt I seem myself tackling anything larger than 3/8" think and I'd really like to be productive with as little a practise as possible.

Soundguy · Apr 13, 2008

Remember.. the 50A is a max rating... just because you have a welder that can weld at 225a.. don't mean you have to.. I do most of my stick welding between 90a and 120a output.. that's less than 20a input current..

soundguy

canoetrpr · Apr 13, 2008

yeah... that makes sense. Sounds like I would be fine either way. Any clue on how much quicker it would be to be productive for a newbie with a AC/DC arc welder vs. mig?

One way or the other (Arc or Mig), I've decided that when I do get a welder, I'll get a 230V outlet put in my workshop. No point limiting myself to one of the smaller mig units.

I'm going to keep my eyes open at the equipment auctions this spring. A new AC/DC Lincoln 225 is $630 or so. The Lincoln mig 180 is about $700. Sounds like a purchase to plan for on a shopping trip to Buffalo. I imagine prices are a bit better in the USA?

xlr82v2 · Apr 13, 2008

Canoetrpr,

I'd still recommend the stick welder. It's much better for heavier steel 1/8" and above than even the 180 MIG (although for 1/8", the 180 MIG will be fine, but you'll be getting close to it's limits), and once you learn Stick, then going to MIG will be a cakewalk. Stick works much better on painted/rusty/dirty metal than MIG... MIG has to be CLEAN, CLEAN CLEAN... which is really hard to do at times. People who do FCAW (flux-core, gasless) with their MIG machines say it works on dirty metal, but then you're still limited by the power output of the machine. MIG also doesn't usually work so well outdoors (the wind outside will blow your shielding gas away... and it just doesn't work when that happens!) No such problem with Stick.

I learned Stick first (when I was a little kid, dad taught me how to make metal stick together when I was old enough to strike an arc), then I got myself a MIG (Lincoln SP175+) a few years ago for welding thin sheet metal.

My recommendation is this: If you predominantly plan on welding heavier steel (making tractor implements, etc...) go with a Stick machine. If you plan on welding mostly thin sheetmetal (car fenders, artwork, etc) go with the MIG as your first machine. Either is going to take a lot of practice to get proficient with and make sound welds. Stick will make sound welds that don't look so pretty... MIG will make pretty welds that are not sound at all. There's no way of getting around practicing... that's why welding is a skilled trade in the job market, it's a skill that has to be learned with time and experience. A $450 AC/DC SMAW (Stick) machine will weld 1/2" steel in a single pass. To get a MIG with that same capability you're looking at spending $1500-$2000+. So you can see that price wise, there's a big disparity in thickness capability per dollar.

If you decide to go with stick, and are looking for an AC/DC machine, I'd recommend the Hobart over the Lincoln... it has a better DC output than the Lincoln, but it usually is just a few $'s more in price, but I think it's worth the difference. If you decide to go with an AC only machine, then go with either Hobart or the Lincoln, whichever you get the better price on... they're both bulletproof machines. From what you stated, you should be able to get much better prices here in the states...

canoetrpr · Apr 13, 2008

Hmm. When the specs on the 180 said it could do 1/2", I figured they meant in a single pass. Guess they would have said this if this is what they meant

Sure sounds like AC/DC stick is the best ticket for general farm use around implements and tractors.

Lincoln machines are not hard to get a hold of. The AC/DC version is carried by TSC. Hobart seems to only be available at specialty welding shops. Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC seem to be available also here. The price is similar to the Lincoln.

Soundguy · Apr 13, 2008

A good ac/dc stick like a hobart stickmatexl235ac/180dc can be had for around 400$.. or could be last year anyway... that's pretty cheap.. and with that power available.. you can weld some big honkin metal.. with lots of options.. IE.. you can change out electrodes for different jobs.. and in a pinch.. a high current ac setting with a 1/8 6011 rod can be used to make a strong ugly repair on a piece of rusty painted metal on some farm implement in half the time it would take you to get the piece cleaned up and buffed down for the mig to make a good bead... add a little wind or some light rain to that and the mig beciomes almost useless with much preparation and mitigation like wid shields and a canopy...

soundguy

patrick_g · Apr 14, 2008

canoetrpr, None of your choices for a welder will work well without your laving to practice and to use the feedback of your practice to modify your approach. Just doing a lot of welding will not make you an acceptable welder. Reading, practicing, and trying to diagnose the results so as to make corrections to your technique can work but isn't always easy.

Getting a good coach to help you learn the RIGHT WAY or better yet taking some classes will get you way ahead of where you will be on your own.

If you were debating which sort of piano to buy (baby grand, grand, upright, spinet, etc) what difference would it really make if you had never played before and skipped the lessons and just went at it by yourself? Do you expect you'd be making good music after just plinking around for a while?

Anybody can make sparks and melt metal but to produce useful (safe and good holding) welds is not trivial.

Pat

canoetrpr · Apr 14, 2008

Now if it is really like playing a piano, I might as well give up before I start. I couldn't play a musical instrument if my life depended on it.

xlr82v2 · Apr 14, 2008

patrick_g said:
canoetrpr, None of your choices for a welder will work well without your laving to practice and to use the feedback of your practice to modify your approach. Just doing a lot of welding will not make you an acceptable welder. Reading, practicing, and trying to diagnose the results so as to make corrections to your technique can work but isn't always easy.

Getting a good coach to help you learn the RIGHT WAY or better yet taking some classes will get you way ahead of where you will be on your own.

If you were debating which sort of piano to buy (baby grand, grand, upright, spinet, etc) what difference would it really make if you had never played before and skipped the lessons and just went at it by yourself? Do you expect you'd be making good music after just plinking around for a while?

Anybody can make sparks and melt metal but to produce useful (safe and good holding) welds is not trivial.

Pat

Pat,

That is profound. That's the best way to put it that I've ever seen, best analogy I've seen on this subject, ever!! Period.

Mind if I use that at times?

patrick_g · Apr 14, 2008

Brian, I live in a world of analogies and any you like are free for the using.

canoetrpr, Sorry if I struck a "bad note" with you but welding is a skill that requires a little hand eye coordination and the ability to do more than one thing at the same time. For example... You should look at the puddle of molten metal NOT the arc but you have to constantly adjust the arc to maintain the conditions to keep a proper puddle which requires a little manual dexterity. In addition you should be listening to the sound of the arc for feedback on rate of feed of the stick and rate of forward travel information in addition to the puddle's contribution to feedback you need to adjust the rate of forward travel.

Sure looks easy when the good ole boy with the knack does it, like it was easy as slowly drawing a line with a crayon. It is not the same skill set as a musician but it is just as demanding if you want your welding to be right.

Warning, more analogy: Anyone can pick up a set of sticks and start flailing on a drum or set of drums, even deluding themselves, thinking that they are OK drummers but in reality I guess not all God's children have rhythm. Having been a drummer with experience in several genres of music (Jazz, Rock, Classical, Martial) I can promise you not everyone gets it right. Same story with a welding machine, Anybody can put a stick in the electrode holder and "go for it" but not everyone does all that well but most who "get it" do so only with lots of practice and the ability to critique themselves and look for what to do to get better.

Again, a coach or a class will get you boot strapped much faster with fewer bad habits to have to unlearn. Find a good welder and make a deal for some lessons. Do be advised though that not every good welder is a good teacher/coach.

I don't intend to make welding sound impossible for any but us members of the priesthood as that is NOT the case. Anyone with the guts to stick with it (pun intended) should be able to learn to weld mild steel down hand good enough to be useful and go beyond that level with practice and hopefully good coaching.

Pat