Help choosing the right dozer.

   / Help choosing the right dozer. #1  

Jeff244

Silver Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2008
Messages
154
Location
Southern IL
Tractor
Kioti DK 65C
I am looking at a Case 450C Dozer next week. I have been reading a lot of posts concerning dozers and I am now starting to second guess myself. I need the machine to make a few miles of roads/trails in wooded and hilly land. I also plan to clear about 10 acres of land and maybe dig a few ponds. I am retired and the work would be done over the course of a few years. Is this machine big enough? I don't mind if it just takes longer to do the work but it still needs to be capable. I don't want too big of a machine because it will be harder for me to work on and more expensive too. Any thoughts would be appreciated. My budget recently went up to 22k from about 15k and if anyone has some persuasive arguments for me to use, it could go a little higher.


Thanks,
Jeff
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer.
  • Thread Starter
#2  
No replies? Should I be posting in a different category?

I tried out a Case 650H LT yesterday at a dealer. It seemed pretty nice. I've never used a dozer before, but I've spent many hours running a JD450 crawler loader years ago. I had to use it in the gravel lot. It dug into the gravel pretty easily and it turned both directions good also. I am looking at a case 450 next week, but after seeing the 650, I think the 450 will be too small. They had a JD 450H there also. It was in the shop so I didn't get to run it but it looked about the same size as the case machine. To me the Deere looked better built but I would need to operate it for a while to see how different it feels.


Jeff
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer. #3  
I would recommend a little bit larger dozer than the 450 the 650 you tried out would be a heck of a lot better for your situation. I believe you will be spending a lot more time with the 450 than you expect it is a small dozer for the things you want to do with it just my 2 cents
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer. #4  
That is a pretty good budget for most things. however with dozers you might be stuck with a problem child if you find something sized like you want and price the same way too. example is that I sell small small machines around 10,000 pound dozers and these sell any where from $13,000 to $19,000. They are the Komatsu brand and run great. :) But you go to the mid size dozers adn they JUMP in price. I have a 1993 Komatsu D37P here that will sell for low $20's when completed and this is still only 17,000 pounds. OF course when you are operating a dozer doing yoru own work you will have a nice warm fuzzy feeling that is worth all the hassles. :)
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer. #5  
Jeff to bad your not closer to darinray those komatsu dozers are nice units and that one is in your price range.
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer.
  • Thread Starter
#6  
Thanks for the replies,

Schwartz04, I agree and I think I will stay with the larger machine.

DarinRay, The more I look the more I am realizing that I need (want) to raise my budget. My reasoning with the wife is that we will own the machine for 20 years and spending a little more now will save on future repairs. The closest equipment dealer to us is about 50 or 60 miles away and it's a Cat dealer. The Cat's seem to be more expensive than other brands, especially from the dealer. I am seriously considering selling an old car that will raise my budget to the mid 30's hopefully. I haven't seen that many Komatsu's for sale but I will start paying more attention to them. What do you think of the Case dozers, there seems to be quite a few around here and they are cheaper than the Cat's or Deere.


Thanks,
Jeff
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer. #7  
Yes you have a good point.. Spend it now or spend it later and have to fix it. :)

To be honest I'm not a fan of the Case machines in general but thats because I sell mainly KOMATSU. :) Seriously though whatever machine you buy will perform basically the same as other brands. Difference being resale value, parts cost (they are all higher than you want to spend), and of course initial costs becuase of the popularity of the machine. I think all of the top brands are pretty darn dependable now so just get to know your dealer or have your machine INSPECTED by a third party if private or even a dealer sale.

Darin
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer. #8  
Jeff,

When I bought my land and started clearing it, I had the use of a John Deere 450G dozer. At first, I was pretty excited about all the land clearing that I was going to be able to do with it.

I found that it was fine for taking out small trees, but was pretty useless on anything over 6 inches thick. I could get them out if I removed enough dirt, but it took awhile. The larger the tree, the longer I spent messing with it.

Then the real shocker. Moving those trees to a burn pile and cleaning up the mess was just about too much for that dozer. It just spins its tracks when trying to push just a few trees at a time, or a pile of brush. I actually gave up and went to chaining them up and draging them with my backhoe and 35hp CUT one at a time.

I did have allot of fun heading off into the jungle and cutting new trails. As long as I stuck with the small stuff, It was great. Next to finish work, blazing new trails is my favorite thing to do. Then the prolem of cleaning up those trails became apperant. It was just too small a machine to push out piles of debri. I'd start with a small pile, but they tend to grow on you. The farther the push, the worse it got. Every time, I'd have to stop, split the pile in half, and push that half. It just wasn't practical for getting anything done.

The final straw came when I was digging my small 3/4 acre pond. I had started out dgging it with my full sized backhoe. It's a Ford/New Holland 555E in 2wd. I would dig out some dirt, then haul it out with the front bucket. When the Deere 450G arrived, I thought that I'd just lower the blade and start pushing dirt. It was too light to dig into the hard packed clay. I tried the edge of the blade too, but it wasn't able to break through.

A small dozer like that needs rippers to break up the dirt before it can push it. That dozer didsn't have rippers, so it was useless in pond digging for me. Even if it did have rippers, the blade was too small to move very much dirt anyway.

It was a nice sized dozer for shaping and smothing out the shorline of that pond. With loose soil, it's ideal for this. Another good thing about that sized dozer is when you get it stuck, it's easy to get unstuck. I burried the tracks in mud while working on the edge of the pond and was able to pluck it out with a chain attached to the hoe bucket of my backhoe. The backhoe has plenty of power for pulling out a dozer of that size.

Having said that, Meadowlarkponds is a member here and he has a Case 450 dozer. He loves it and has cleared allot more land then you plan on clearing with it. He's also dug at least one pond with it, but I don't know the details on wethere that was the only tractor that he used or not. He did have his last pond hired out to a crew with two D6's, so that might say something about small dozers too.

When I decided to buy my dozer, I wanted something allot bigger then that 450G. My goal was low 100hp range. I looked at a Case 1150, Cat D5 D6 D7, JD 700 850 and the one I bought, a Case 1550. I paid $25,000 for it and have put about $10,000 into it in repairs. It's a 1988 machine with allot of hours on it. The meter isn't accurate, so there's no real way of knowing for sure. It's big enough to take out most trees up to 18 inches by just pushing them over if the soil is soft. In hard soil, middle of summer type conditions, I've had issues with 12 inch trees. Soil conditions make a huge difference in what you can push over and what you have to dig out!!!!!!!!

I also found that digging ponds takes allot of time. My blade is rated for over 3 yards. That means that if I lower the blade an inch into the ground, it's full in about 20 feet. The rest of the distance that I'm moving is just travel time. Going back and forth all day long to dig that one inch in 20 feet takes hundreds and hundreds of hours to dig a decent sized hole. My blade is also 12 feet wide.

Clearing roads and trails with it is still allot of fun. Unfortunalty, cleaning up those trails is still a nightmare. The problem with a bigger dozer, is that you make a bigger mess. With 168hp, I can really twist up some trees into a tangle that takes months to undo.

Last year I tried something new in my timber clearing techique. I used the bachoe to take out the trees, then drag them to the burn pile right away. I kept the road clear from the very beginning and kept it up on the entire road. There are four roads in that area that are the same size and distance from the burn pile. The first three were done with the dozer, then cleaned up with the backhoe. Each of them took a day to clear with the dozer, but months to clean up. The newest road took two weeks to clear with the backhoe and it was done.

I will never clear roads or trails with the dozer again. It's just not effective when adding in the time and effort it takes to clean up the debri they create.

My dozer is now just used for shaping and spreading dirt. It's worthless for moving dirt very far, and it uses about five gallons of diesel per hour to run it, so I'm much more concious of when I use it and what I use it for.

To move dirt, I load it into my dump truck, drive it to where I want it, and build up massive piles. This might take a few months, but then I spend a few hours on the dozer to shape and spread it out. Fuel wise, I'm saving allot of money. Work wise, I'm moving along at a fair speed, but it's all progress. No more doing something, then having to clean it up again.

As for the ideal size, I'd think something in the 100hp range with a six way blade and hydrostatic drive would by ideal. Gear drive will get it done, but stearing and changing direction with hydrostatic is a huge plus. That Deere dozer had a solid sprocket, which meant pulling the tracks to replace it. Most other dozers have five piece sprockets, which make changing them real easy.

If Cat is the closest dealer to you, then you should seriously consider buying a Cat. One fact is true with owning a dozer, it will break on you. They take allot of abuse and they are very delicate machines. Trees and brush clearing is probably the most abusive thing you can do with a dozer. I've had tiny pine trees work there way through my belly plates ant take out hoses, filters, wiring and my oil sending unit. Never drive over fallen trees!!!! Push them aside and always work on dirt.

The Cat D5C is a low track dozer that's a good machine and probably in your budget. The high tracks are the big money machines, and more then you really need.

I would only buy a machine that had a dealer close by. Do a search to make sure, but if Cat is your only dealer within an hour of you, that's really all I'd look at. Cat might be the most expensive, but they have earned that right with the best support and a history of making quality machines. Since you plan on keeping it for 20 plus years, think support first. It's the most important part of owning equipment.

Eddie
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer.
  • Thread Starter
#9  
Darin,

There are a few Cat dealers and 1 JD dealer within 100 miles of me with 2 of the Cat dealers being closer than the JD dealer so I will probably lean towards a Cat. If I buy from a dealer, where would I find a mechanic to check out the machine? If I was buying from a private party I could have a mechanic from the nearest dealer check it out. I am kind of in the middle of nowhere.


Eddie,

Thanks for the reply, lots of info for me to think about. I appreciate you taking the time to post so much info.

I didn't realize that the dozers would have problems pushing the trees over, I guess thats because the blades are low and you don't get much leverage like you do with a loader bucket.

I love making new trails too. I've made some with my Kioti but that machine is very limited in what it can do and easy to damage. I didn't think about moving all the debris from making the new trails, I was just planning on pushing them a ways off the trail. I had an excavator cut in some trails for me a couple of years ago and you can hardly see any of the piles, they kind of blend in with the other fallen trees and branches.

You convinced me to go with a D5 or a JD650. The place that I tested out the Case 650 had a Cat D5 but I didn't try it out! It looked big compared to the Case machine. Unfortunately it's about 90 miles away.

"I also found that digging ponds takes allot of time. My blade is rated for over 3 yards. That means that if I lower the blade an inch into the ground, it's full in about 20 feet". Wow, that puts things in perspective. I guess I need to work a small dump truck into the budget.

You are scaring me a little with all the talk of breakdowns. Is it mainly issues with the tracks or what? I'm guessing it's going to cost me around 4 or 5 hundred dollars to get the machine to the dealer and back. Depending on the type of repair, they could send out a mechanic, but that won't be cheap either.

A couple of more questions:

1) What would the fuel consumption of these machines be? I am guessing around 2 gallons an hour? My 65hp Kioti uses about a gallon an hour when I use it at about 3/4 throttle. I assume that I wouldn't run the dozer at full unless I was

2) All the adds I see talk about % undercarriage. I understand that 70% undercarriage means that there is 70% wear left. But how does that translate into how many hours I could expect to put on the machine before major repairs to the undercarriage are needed?


Thanks,
Jeff
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer. #10  
My dozer is 168 hp and burns about 5gallons of diesel an hour. A smaller machine will burn less fuel, but take longer to move as much dirt. If I had a straight blade, I could move 5 yards of dirt instead of 3 for the same amount of fuel, but that would limit me on what I could do with my roads and shaping my dirt piles.

As for taking out trees, height isn't as important as weight and power. It's much better to get the blade in under the tree and pop it out then it is to get up high and push it over. With bigger trees, they tend to snap in half before coming out. It's all in the roots, which is why small dozers have so much trouble. They spin their tracks, they stall from trying to pry with their hydraulics and they cut up the bark real bad, but unless you dig out the root ball and build up a ramp for some leverage, the tree isn't going anywhere. Even with my medium sized dozer, I prefer to use my backhoe for taking out the medium to large trees. If it doesn't go over with one push, I move on.

It's hard to explain what will break and when. If I knew that, I'd stay indoors on those days. hahaha Hoses are the most common things that go. Just don't let them break when you are far out in the woods and there's no way to get it off. Then there are the cylinders. They will leak sooner or later. Some are very heavy, others are incredably dificult to get to.

What else will break? It all goes back to Murpheys Law. If it can, it will.

Undercairage were is the big money item on a tracked machine. At 50 percent, you will need to spend some money. At 70 percent, it's gonna happen pretty soon. The tracks are metal rubbing on metal. It's just a matter of time until they wear out. Do you know the terms of the tracks and what to look for? Measureing wear versus hours of life is a tricky question. First, dealers and those selling the equipment lie about wear. Don't even waste your time asking, it wont be the truth. Either figure out how to rate this yourself, or have a pro look at the machine first. Each manufacturer has their own rating and measurements that you take to determine wear. You add them all up and figure out the averages for total wear.

Sand is really bad on wear, as is mud. If you have fairly solid soil, then the tracks can last thousands of hours. Of course, greese and the proper tension make a huge difference too.

Either Cat of Deere are just about as good as you will find. You can take a chance with the other barnds, but those two are the best.

Eddie
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer. #11  
Uhhhh excuse me Ed? "First, dealers and those selling the equipment lie about wear. Don't even waste your time asking, it wont be the truth." WOW normally I like to read what you post but dang. :( Come on thats like saying that all general contractors lie about structural stability when building your home so get a engineering degree to watch over them. :)


Darin
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer. #12  
Shoot that an easy question. Get the Deere dealer mechanic to go to the Cat dealer and visa versa. You will get the real inspection too because each will put the other machine down to get you to buy from them. :)

darin
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer. #13  
Jeff244 said:
All the adds I see talk about % undercarriage. I understand that 70% undercarriage means that there is 70% wear left. But how does that translate into how many hours I could expect to put on the machine before major repairs to the undercarriage are needed?
The two big variables there are usage and conditions. Sand is tough on tracks, but rock is really bad too. for a farm or "homeowner" use, 70% might be a lifetime. Tracks can be shortened and pins and bushings turned to extend out the tracks life-cycle. This site a a pretty good "what to look for" wear guide, Crawler Heaven - Construction Equipment Parts in Palmyra, NY - The Source for All of Your Bulldozer Parts Needs.

Why not buy a crawler loader (preferably with a 4n1) instead of a dozer? IMO, would be much more useful in the long run.
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer. #14  
DarinRay said:
Uhhhh excuse me Ed? "First, dealers and those selling the equipment lie about wear. Don't even waste your time asking, it wont be the truth." WOW normally I like to read what you post but dang. :( Come on thats like saying that all general contractors lie about structural stability when building your home so get a engineering degree to watch over them. :)


Darin

Darin,

I apologize and didn't mean that, the way it reads.

Let me try again because I realize that a blanket statement like that wasn't true, and my intent was not to characterize everyone who sells used equipment as dishonest.

When looking at used equipment, and especially tracked equipment, the buyer should aproach it with extreme sceptisism on the ratings offered. You'll hear all versions of how good it is, to the blanket, he don't know anything about it, when talking to the sales guys.

I personally find it very dificult to believe what I'm told and paid for an old timer to come along with me when looking at machines. He has been moving dirt since the 40's and has a small fleet of eqipment himself, so I felt it was worth the money to pay him for his opinion.

In every case, his opinion varied greatly to the guy selling the dozer, or the saleman on the lot. We would laugh at some of them and there versions of why the dozer is in really good shape except for the small, inexpensive fix that is needed. Oh yeah, you can't drive it like itis, but spend a few bucks and it will be good as new. He's just too busy to do it himself. Anybody want to guess how many times I heard that story or a version of it?

And yes Darin, ALLOT of contractrs lie about what they build and how strong it is. I have a list of clients that I work for who have hired others to build or repair something on their house and it's falling apart. Both of the contractors that I'm getting this from have been building custom homes in the area for years. The corners that they cut to save a buck just make my head spin. If I was to hire a contractor, I wouldn't trust him either. There are just too many out there who are drunks, alchohalics and gamblers. Some have the skills, but are too in over their heads with personal issues to be able to do a good job anymore. This is true for the vast majority of those in the trades. It's also what keeps me in business and how I make a good part of my living.

Again, sorry if I offended you, it was not my intention.

Eddie
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer. #15  
Jeff244,

As Eddie mentioned, I have a Case 450C and have used the heck out of it. For general ranch work, I think it is a fine machine....however for pond building, it is marginal and really only applicable to small ponds of less than 1/2 acre.

Not only is it slow going, but it also has very low relative compaction which is useful in some things, but not building larger ponds. I used mine on renovating a couple of ponds including expanding one old 1/4 acre pond into a 2 acre pond. It took a long time and I used a back-hoe/front-end loader to move a lot of the dirt. (that renovation experience is documented on my web site under "Walden" pond).

The most important use I've made of the 450 is in clearing 70 acres of 5-year regrowth clear-cut land. It really did a nice job on that project. Most of the re-growth was 6 inches diameter or less and it handled that stuff fine....larger trees would be a problem. Today that 70 acres is beautiful pasture land.

So, without further rambling, I'd summarize by saying that the 450c is a good general land maintenance machine, but not well suited for larger ponds and/or larger trees.

One key to any used dozer is the availability of parts and if you aren't into mechanic work, the availability of a good repair mechanic. Here is where the 450C was a good choice for me...parts readily available and a great mechanic just 10 miles away. The 450 can be loaded on relatively small trailers and pulled into the shop with a good heavy duty pick-up.....an act which I performed many times. Hiring a large dozer to be moved for repairs it very expensive.

Repairs themselves are not only expensive, they are frustrating because they cost you time. I can't emphasize enough the importance of readily available parts and skilled mechanic...and a large checkbook helps also. Undercarriage = $$$. It isn't do it yourself repairs either. Smaller machines generally are less expensive to rebuild the undercarriage, but even at that, I spent over $3k on mine after clearing the 70 acres and it was in relatively good shape when I bought it and started out.

In spite of the repairs and expense, I love having a small dozer for general ranch work. Without it, I'm not sure how long I'd be able to do all the maintenance...its like having a full work crew at your disposal. Good luck!!
.
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer. #16  
See and there you go again with a post that is a pleasure to read. :) seriously I was not offended but didn't want that left blank because then people may think "I" lie about conditions of my machines if I didn't say this. You or anyone else don't have to believe me but seriously my mechanic makes fun of me sometimes with the information that I tell people when trying to sell them something. It is like I put the machine down where and if it has issues and sometimes it does hinder a sale but I don't really care to hide things that I "KNOW" of. Of course there are problems sometimes but to this day I haven't got my butt kicked or threatened by customers because I do try to make things right. But anyway this is starting to sound toooooooo much like a sales pitch. :)

I do appreciate your response and do understand exactly what you mean and say. You must be able to type FAST with all the posts that are in detail. Loved the building lake one. WOWOWOWOWOWOWOWOW what a job.

Darin
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer. #17  
I'm certainly not an expert but will offer up the little bit I've learned owning a dozer for a few months and 50 hrs or so of use. I've got a Cat D5G which is about 100HP (maybe 90 - I can't remember), weights 20,000 lbs, and has a Hydro transmission.

I love the Hydro transmission. Any numbskull like me can operate it.

I'm glad I didn't get anything smaller. The D5 can do amazing stuff, but as Eddie described, you can quickly load up the blade and find yourself struggling to push it. Yet it's still small enough to be maneuverable and fit in tight areas.

It sure doesn't burn 5 gal per hour - I'd guess between 1 and 2 depending on how hard you are working it.

Definitely get a 6-way blade. I can't imagine working without the tilt.

I bought a pretty new machine with low hours (2006 with 1000 hrs), so it cost a bundle, but I figure it will have good resale value when I'm done with it. I also hope it will be more dependable. We'll see if this approach works in the long run.

Good luck.
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer.
  • Thread Starter
#18  
DarinRay,

"Get the Deere dealer mechanic to go to the Cat dealer and visa versa. You will get the real inspection too because each will put the other machine down to get you to buy from them." Good one, I had a good laugh. It is a good idea too. I would love to get the salesman fighting to get me a good deal too.
"It is like I put the machine down where and if it has issues and sometimes it does hinder a sale but I don't really care to hide things that I "KNOW" of." That sounds so much like my dad. He sells antique pedal tractors and whenever he shows me one all he does is point out whats wrong with them even though they look perfect to me. I was going to deliver one for him a few weeks ago for a site unseen sale. He spent 20 minutes pointing out the flaws in it and kept stressing that if the person that was buying it didn't like it there was no obligation to buy it. That's why people trust him. Too bad I don't live closer to you.

tlbuser,

Thanks for the link.
"Why not buy a crawler loader (preferably with a 4n1) instead of a dozer? IMO, would be much more useful in the long run." I had considered that but a lot of the trails and roads that I want to cut in are on hills. Most of them will be sideways on the hills. It should be easy to just tilt the dozer blade to level out the areas as I am cutting them in. It's doable with a loader, but much more difficult.

meadowlarkponds,

As mentioned in my original post, I was going to look at a case 450, but now I am looking for something a little bigger. I've looked at your website(great site), it's amazing all the work you did with your machines. I guess I will have to think if names for my current and hopefully future ponds.

Eddie,
I've been reading more of your posts lately. I have one question, do you ever sleep? It's amazing how much you accomplish as well as taking time to post . Every time I am bush hogging my trails or riding the atv around I think of new projects to do, when I get the dozer hopefully I will actually get something done.
As far as contractors go, I ran an asphalt contracting business for about 20 years. I think asphalt contractors in general cheat as much or more than most. By laying 1.5" instead of 2" they could save hundreds or thousands of dollars in materials and the customer wouldn't know until a few years later when it failed. I have had people show me bids for a job from other contractors that were for less than the cost of the materials. I would never bad mouth another contractor but I would give the people the phone numbers of the suppliers and the quantities of materials and have them call and find out what the material costs were. I remember when I was about 20 years old my dad telling me that if I was ever going to cheat someone I better make enough money that I never had to work again. His point being, without a good reputation, you will not stay in business. Sorry for the ramble, I guess I am in the mood for reminiscing tonight.

hayden,

I would love to say that I would love to buy a newer machine and plan to sell it, but I know I will never sell it. I notice that when I am looking at used equipment on dealers sites, I always end up looking at the machines that are way out of my range. A cab and ac would be great! Have you operated much equipment before buying your D5? It just seems so big to me, but I am comparing it to a 1967 JD 450 loader that I used years ago.


Jeff
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer. #19  
Jeff244 said:
hayden,

I would love to say that I would love to buy a newer machine and plan to sell it, but I know I will never sell it. I notice that when I am looking at used equipment on dealers sites, I always end up looking at the machines that are way out of my range. A cab and ac would be great! Have you operated much equipment before buying your D5? It just seems so big to me, but I am comparing it to a 1967 JD 450 loader that I used years ago.


Jeff

My wife doesn't think I'll ever sell the dozer - she's probably right, but the notion of resale value helped justify a newer machine.....

I had never run a dozer before getting the D5, but I picked up loader and backhoe operation quickly when I first started using them so I wasn't too worried. I've seen some super skilled operators and I'm not one of them, but I can do an OK job with it.

Initially it did seem huge, but my experience with tractors is that they seem huge when you first get them and get progressively smaller every day you use them. Applying that experience, I decided to go on the large end of the range I was considering. I was looking at D3, D4, D5 models, and Deere 450, 650, and 850 (I think I recall the Deere models correctly, but they are roughly equivalent to the Cat models). After using the D5 for a few projects, it no longer feels so huge, in fact it feels just right. Most tasks it does handily, and others I have to really work it - that feels like the right size machine to me.

Folks here on TBN repeated over and over how important a near-by dealer is, and after reading about various repair efforts, I totally get it. With that advice, I ended up focusing on Cat over Deere because there is a large dealer (they cover MA, NH, VT,ME, and NY) with locations reasonably convenient to me. It's still a good hour drive, but one location I drive right by going back and fourth between NH and VT.

So far I'm very happy with the choice.
 
   / Help choosing the right dozer. #20  
I have no professional input due to very limited dozer use. I did run a JD 650 about 3-4 yrs. ago for some general dirt/grade work and I thought it worked wonderfully. Nice power and easily capable of pushing up a few pecan trees.

Later I spent some time on a JD 9520 scraper tractor and worked along with a Komatsu D61. When I climbed on the JD650 then, I would have bet anything that it was definitely a lot smaller than the 650 I was on a few yrs. back. Here the 650 seemed small and underpowered.

So I guess I am trying to say it all depends on what you compare it to. I feel certain that if a 450 or D3 were the first dozer I operated, they would have been more than adequate. But stepping down from bigger toys makes me feel like the smaller dozer is too small.

Something I heard and maybe someone that actually knows can correct- backing a dozer wears the undercarriage faster than forward. Seems to me like it would be the same. Anyone know?

Have you considered renting? Mostly late model equipment and no break-downs to repair. You could rent larger equipment and drastically cut your time. You may even rent different equipment for different tasks to help.
 

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