Help! First tractor - Deere vs Kubota vs New Holland

[Metropolis_488]

So I am looking to purchase my first tractor. I have 35 acres, about 30 of which are farmable. I am going to plant it in vineyard. The first year I will only put in about 5 acres and slowly fill out the rest from there.

The work I plan on doing with the tractor is: mowing, post hole digger, rotary tiller, sprayer and a little disc work. The soil is a silt loam. There are some rocks in there, but not too much and the aspect of the land has a good slope to it.

I am very confused as to what I will need from a tractor and have been getting a lot of conflicting information from local tractor salesmen. The local New Holland dealer tells me I need at least 65-70 hp for “real farming” duties and wants to get me into a $30k TN70F. Then a gray-market tractor dealer (about 45 minutes north of me) told me I really don’t need anything more than 20-25 hp and wants to sell me a used gray-market tractor for $5k or so. The local Deere dealer told me that they used to stock New Holland parts and they were more expensive than Deere parts. The New Holland dealer told me he worked a Deere dealership for 10 years and Deere parts are way more expensive than NH parts…which is true?

Purchasing a $30k tractor is not an option for me. Like everyone else, the cheaper the better, but I really do not want to go over $15k. I am intrigued by the gray-market tractors (the local dealer is EFC Construction…I think Buck posts here a lot) but am concerned about parts availability, warranty, etc. etc.

So my question is two-fold: 1) How much hp do I REALLY need and 2) of the tractors listed below, what should I go with? Also, was think that I would hold off on getting a FEL and add it later to defer some of the expense as I should not be needing it for the first two years or so.

Here are tractors I thought may work for me (but if everyone tells me that these are not enough hp, these deals are useless):

New Holland TC30 4WD – gear drive, $12k for the tractor, $14,995 with the FEL.
Kubota L3400 4WD – gear drive, $13,450 for the tractor, $16,950 with the FEL
Kubota L2800 4WD – gear drive, $12,550 for the tractor, $16,010 w/ FEL
Deere 990 4WD – gear drive, $16,659 for the tractor (if I get this, I would hold off on the loader for sure)
Deere 790 4WD – gear drive, $12,029 for the tractor, $15,594 w/FEL.

Also give some opinions on the gray-market tractors (Yanmar, Mitsubishi, etc.)

By the way, I have no idea why Deere dealerships charge above MSRP for tractors…

 

[Z-Michigan]

Sounds like you are getting bad local advice but still focusing on about what you need. Congrats!

Can you define your farming/vineyard duties a bit more? How much mowing is involved and how wide between the rows? Are you on steep slopes at all? How much tilling - are we talking 30 acres of tilling or just 1/2 acre for a separate garden plot?

I am making some guesses about what you're doing and if my guesses are right you are looking at precisely the size tractor that you need. But defining the work will help a lot. I doubt that a TN70 is what you need and I rarely see them on vineyards, but I suppose if you're going to till up 30 acres it might actually make sense.

The post hole drilling and tilling will be significantly easier with an HST (hydrostatic) transmission. I would test drive both gear and HST types and decide for yourself, but since you mention limited disking and lots of non-ground-engaging work, I think you would like HST better. I believe this will eliminate the 990 but leave all the others as options.

The discussions of Deere vs. Kubota vs. NH go on endlessly and largely are not very productive. All three make good tractors. I believe that parts costs will be similar for all three, however, I think you would find that Deere parts are the easiest to get and Kubota the hardest to get. But hopefully on any brand nothing will break often enough for this to really matter. I do not think quality is significantly different among the three, especially in the size range and for the models you're looking at (all of the models you listed are made in Japan, as you probably know).

I would not pay over MSRP for any tractor of any color. I bought a Deere for about $5k less than MSRP. Dealers vary a lot in quality! Definitely consider which dealer is going to give you the best service; IMHO this can be more important than which brand you buy.

Is $15k pretty much all the money you have available? You are going to need a number of implements which will likely add up to couple thousand. You won't be happy if you spend everything on the tractor and can't buy the tools you need to make it useful. In that case I'd be looking used or at smaller tractors.

I have no personal experience with gray market tractors, but I'm sure others will comment.

 

[jbrumberg]

Metropolis 488:

Welcome to TBN ! Prepare yourself for sensory overload from TBN input . First I want to warn you that the membership loves to spend eveyone elses's money and that there are quite a few HP junkies out there. I would make use of the major brand's website tractor needs analyzer software programs. They will make recomendations of the size tractor that best fits your data input. I do believe that they are heavily "loaded" towards anticipated FEL use and acreage, but they still give you a good starting point as to tractor frame size and HP requirements. I also suggest you look at having a FEL and HST. HST especially if this is yur first tractor and you will be getting a FEL. Z-Michigan has offered some good points, and personally I think that you are headed in the right direction as to tractor size as you will be working the 30A's but working the acreas selectively- tilling areas selectively for your vines, mowing between the vines, and post hole digging for the vine supports. You also will need to move around within your vineyard and your larger frame tractors are not as manuverable as the CUT's, especially if you have an RC hanging off the rear of your tractor. PTO HP will determine you rotary cutter size, but all of those mentionned can easily handle a 5' RC and most could handle a 6' RC in light duty application. What you need to look out for is the weight balance between the tractor and RC. A lighter tractor would have more of a balance issue with a heavier RC (ie 6') especially is the RC was a medium or heavy duty model. A FEL really helps to balance the load. I would also recommend weighted rear tires for traction, balance for the FEL work, and stability on the slopes. I will not go near discussion of what type of tire. All the tractors mentionned could handle a 5' tiller as well as a PHD. A heavier tractor is better for ground engaging tasks and a lighter tractor is better for mowing. I also recommend 4WD/MFWD due to the slopes and traction needs. I will repeat myself again- get a FEL! I did not know what I was missing until I got a FEL. They have more uses than you can imagine . Good luck on your reseach and acquisition and keep the posts coming . Jay

 

[Metropolis_488]

Thanks for the responses guys!

Ok, so...
The amount of mowing I guess will be a lot. 8 ft between rows for now (though future plantings may be less…say 7 or 6 feet – so I need to consider tractor width). I am dry-farming and will want to clean-cultivate between the rows for the first year or two to help establish the vines (I don’t want any competition for the water). Tilling will occur after rain between rows to help prevent evaporation – so it will be a light tilling, only an inch or two into the top of the soil. Again, tilling between the rows, ultimately over the whole planted area (25 – 30 acres), but only about 5 acres for the first year or two. I do have some slope, not sure of the grade, but enough to warrant weighted tires, for sure.

I have thought about money left over for implements. This is why I am considering a gray-market tractor from EFC Construction (EFC here on tractorbynet). My only concern is parts availability. It may be fine as long as he is in business and can supply the parts for my tractor, but what do I do if he closes shop in two years or something… Also, those tractors don't have ROPS, factory warranties, etc...

Paying over MSRP is crazy...I would never do it for a car, and I don't plan on doing it for a tractor...the Deere dealership is a little loopy...

I think for cost, at this point HST is a luxury I can't afford. I'll learn to deal with a gear drive.

I hear what you are saying about the differences between the brands. I was just trying to get a handle on long term cost. For example, there is a Mahindra dealer about 45 miles south of me. I could probably get the tractor I need at a good price, but I am unsure how I feel about parts availability.

But you guys do think that the 30 hp range is ok for my needs?

 

[Kendall69]

I also think you need a bigger tractor. You can get a bigger USED tractor for the same money as a smaller new tractor. There are plenty around for your price range.

With the first tractor people ( including me) think small, and then realize after they start using the equipment that they wish they “had more” - what that more is you have to decide.

Also with a good used tractor you can afford implements, and some times the seller will include some at no charge.

If the price is right you can use it for a few years while you are deciding what you really like/need, and often times get 90% of what you paid for your unit.

Check out E-bay, Craigs list, tractor trader, etc. Etc. There out there, but you have to work to get a deal.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I would probably look used before I would go gray market. There should be a decent number of used CUTs in the same hp range for significantly less than new. I would also take a look at 2nd tier brands like Mahindra, Kioti, TYM, Montana, etc. as many of these are good and significantly less. My personal favorite of these is Kioti. I saw Montana for the first time last weekend and it looked pretty decent, somewhere above the Chinese products. I haven't seen Mahindra or TYM in person.

I think 30hp range is correct for what you've described and in fact 25hp might be adequate.

I still recommend you test drive HST and think about getting it. For tilling the flexibility of speed will be a big plus, and for mowing it will make it easier to mow around obstacles and turn at ends of rows. You certainly can do all this with gear, just HST may make it easier and potentially faster.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

I would not pay over MSRP for any tractor of any color. I bought a Deere for about $5k less than MSRP. Dealers vary a lot in quality! Definitely consider which dealer is going to give you the best service; IMHO this can be more important than which brand you buy.

This may start happening more. Deere narrowed the margin between dealer cost and MSRP so that they could lower the MSRP figures on the online configeration tool. The standard series tractors typicaly require much more dealer assembly and prep than the more deluxe models. It could be that till freight and assembly costs are paid that the selling price will be over MSRP. If you read the fine print dealer prep and freight are never included in these figures.

 

[VABlue]

The used option is a good place to start out because you'd have some money left to get the implements you need. (Assuming you don't already have them.) I'll also echo the part about getting a FEL - GET A FEL!!!! It does more than just move dirt - it can dig, plow, scrape, grade, knock down, carry, fork, lift, balance, etc... It's multi-purpose in too many ways to list. YOU WILL USE IT EVERY DAY!

Oh, and forget color. Find a dealer you're comfortable with and go with that brand...

 

[flusher]

So I am looking to purchase my first tractor. I have 35 acres, about 30 of which are farmable. I am going to plant it in vineyard. The first year I will only put in about 5 acres and slowly fill out the rest from there.

The work I plan on doing with the tractor is: mowing, post hole digger, rotary tiller, sprayer and a little disc work. The soil is a silt loam. There are some rocks in there, but not too much and the aspect of the land has a good slope to it.

I am very confused as to what I will need from a tractor and have been getting a lot of conflicting information from local tractor salesmen. The local New Holland dealer tells me I need at least 65-70 hp for “real farming” duties and wants to get me into a $30k TN70F. Then a gray-market tractor dealer (about 45 minutes north of me) told me I really don’t need anything more than 20-25 hp and wants to sell me a used gray-market tractor for $5k or so. The local Deere dealer told me that they used to stock New Holland parts and they were more expensive than Deere parts. The New Holland dealer told me he worked a Deere dealership for 10 years and Deere parts are way more expensive than NH parts…which is true?

Purchasing a $30k tractor is not an option for me. Like everyone else, the cheaper the better, but I really do not want to go over $15k. I am intrigued by the gray-market tractors (the local dealer is EFC Construction…I think Buck posts here a lot) but am concerned about parts availability, warranty, etc. etc.

So my question is two-fold: 1) How much hp do I REALLY need and 2) of the tractors listed below, what should I go with? Also, was think that I would hold off on getting a FEL and add it later to defer some of the expense as I should not be needing it for the first two years or so.

Here are tractors I thought may work for me (but if everyone tells me that these are not enough hp, these deals are useless):

New Holland TC30 4WD – gear drive, $12k for the tractor, $14,995 with the FEL.
Kubota L3400 4WD – gear drive, $13,450 for the tractor, $16,950 with the FEL
Kubota L2800 4WD – gear drive, $12,550 for the tractor, $16,010 w/ FEL
Deere 990 4WD – gear drive, $16,659 for the tractor (if I get this, I would hold off on the loader for sure)
Deere 790 4WD – gear drive, $12,029 for the tractor, $15,594 w/FEL.

Also give some opinions on the gray-market tractors (Yanmar, Mitsubishi, etc.)

By the way, I have no idea why Deere dealerships charge above MSRP for tractors…

You have a classic dilemma: multiple chores for some kind of tractor (or tractors) and limited budget.

You need a small tractor for the vineyard chores (setting posts, mowing, discing), probably not more than 25hp on the pto with sufficiently narrow wheel track to fit between the grape trellises. A grey market tractor (Yanmar, Iseki, etc) might be the way to go.

You need a larger tractor to handle your field chores on the farmable part of your land that isn't yet planted with grapes. Mowing is the big chore here. You probably want the largest rotary mower you can fit into your budget unless you like to rack up a lot of seat time mowing your native grasses (aka weeds). Some TBNers have 15-ft wide batwing rotary mowers to handle large acreage (15+ acres). You need at minimum a 60-70hp tractor to handle one of those beasts. It's possible to find a used tractor in this price range (JD, IH Farmall, Case, MF) for under $10K.

Start at your local tractor dealers. Give them your phone # and email address and ask them to contact you when they hear of tractors that might fit your needs.That's how I found my 1964 MF-135 diesel (45 hp engine, 37 hp pto).

 

[GA WTDeer]

Meto, Drive all brands Koiti,JD,MF,Kubota,New Holland, etc. This will give you a feel for the dealer, Every owner here will tell you that this is so important. Are you planning to farm all 30 acres one day? If so your HP needs might be 40+ IMO. You can accomplish tasks with 25hp, but it's how long it take to do so. As was already said keep impliments in mind, maybe work a package deal with a dealer. (Tractor, BH, PHD how much$$) This might seal the deal. Good luck and go drive some tractors even the ones you can't afford! Clay

 

[ArtVandelay]

• If you like great quality, reliability, ergonomics, go for Kubota.

• If you like green paint, and uhh............yeah green paint, go for Deere.

I don't think New Holland are quite in the same league as the other two when it comes to CUTs.

 

[aesanders]

• If you like great quality, reliability, ergonomics, go for Kubota.

• If you like green paint, and uhh............yeah green paint, go for Deere.

I don't think New Holland are quite in the same league as the other two when it comes to CUTs.

Where do you get your information?

 

[aesanders]

Thanks for the responses guys!

Ok, so...
The amount of mowing I guess will be a lot. 8 ft between rows for now (though future plantings may be less…say 7 or 6 feet – so I need to consider tractor width). I am dry-farming and will want to clean-cultivate between the rows for the first year or two to help establish the vines (I don’t want any competition for the water). Tilling will occur after rain between rows to help prevent evaporation – so it will be a light tilling, only an inch or two into the top of the soil. Again, tilling between the rows, ultimately over the whole planted area (25 – 30 acres), but only about 5 acres for the first year or two. I do have some slope, not sure of the grade, but enough to warrant weighted tires, for sure.

I have thought about money left over for implements. This is why I am considering a gray-market tractor from EFC Construction (EFC here on tractorbynet). My only concern is parts availability. It may be fine as long as he is in business and can supply the parts for my tractor, but what do I do if he closes shop in two years or something… Also, those tractors don't have ROPS, factory warranties, etc...

Paying over MSRP is crazy...I would never do it for a car, and I don't plan on doing it for a tractor...the Deere dealership is a little loopy...

I think for cost, at this point HST is a luxury I can't afford. I'll learn to deal with a gear drive.

I hear what you are saying about the differences between the brands. I was just trying to get a handle on long term cost. For example, there is a Mahindra dealer about 45 miles south of me. I could probably get the tractor I need at a good price, but I am unsure how I feel about parts availability.

But you guys do think that the 30 hp range is ok for my needs?

You've got a bunch of varied tasks some of which would be better for a smaller machine and some better for a larger machine. I'd probably go the used route as well and get a larger roughly 30-40 pto hp tractor to start with.

 

[Mighty Dodge]

They're all good brands. The main reason I went with Deere is because there are 2 dealers within 12 miles of my house. I do a lot of my own maintenance but if I need parts or dealer service I don't want to have to drive to timbuktu.

 

[DmansPadge]

• If you like great quality, reliability, ergonomics, go for Kubota.

• If you like green paint, and uhh............yeah green paint, go for Deere.

I don't think New Holland are quite in the same league as the other two when it comes to CUTs.

Whatever you do.... DO NOT listen to advice like this!

 

[RoyJackson]

• If you like great quality, reliability, ergonomics, go for Kubota.

• If you like green paint, and uhh............yeah green paint, go for Deere.

I don't think New Holland are quite in the same league as the other two when it comes to CUTs.

Art...no offense, but your first post was about...5, 6 weeks ago and you had very little, if any, knowledge of tractors at that time. You made several posts asking about the Deere 990 and decided, for whatever reason, to go with Kubota. Kubota's are nice...but they have their problems just like any other machine or tool.

You've probably never sat on a New Holland, so why would you write such a response?

New Holland (Shibura is the manufacturer) is a pretty nice tractor...every bit as good a quality as a Kubota. Although I looked at Kubota first (BX2200 was a good fit, sizewise)...ended up buying a used Deere (cost was the consideration...not color). When I was looking for a tractor for more power, I wanted another Deere, but the New Holland TC-30 was my second choice..and, yeah, I looked at a B7800 Kubota too. The New Holland had the most robust front axle of any of them. But, again, $$$'s made the choice with a nice deal on a lightly used 790.

Around my area (south central PA), most of the CUTs are Deere or New Hollands for residential use and most of the small contractor machines are Deere and Kubota, Deere far exceeding Kubota. That's a subjective study and not scientific at all.

Metropolis_488
I surely wouldn't go grey market. There's little dealer support and parts can be difficult. If you're OK turning a wrench and can figure things out without a manual...well, it's risky still as parts may not even be available in the United States. I'd say you're better going used then grey market. Again, that depends on your skills.

 

[Builder]

• If you like great quality, reliability, ergonomics, go for Kubota.

• If you like green paint, and uhh............yeah green paint, go for Deere.

I don't think New Holland are quite in the same league as the other two when it comes to CUTs.

Based on your vast knowledge, right?

 

[GA WTDeer]

• If you like great quality, reliability, ergonomics, go for Kubota.

• If you like green paint, and uhh............yeah green paint, go for Deere.

I don't think New Holland are quite in the same league as the other two when it comes to CUTs.

Crickets..............

 

[ArtVandelay]

New Holland specs seem to be usually less than Kubota and Deere, when comparing similar PTO hp.

 

[GaryCrowell]

If you're going to use it to make money, get an ag tractor. All those you mentioned are compact utilities I believe. They're the newest rage for the mini-ranchers, kind of a cross between a real tractor and a lawn mower. I'll get flamed for saying that, but there's some truth to it. They're nice to look at, have all the gucci gauges and easy operating gizmos like HST, and tend to be a boon to the tractor dealers as real tractor sales decrease as family farms get snapped up for condo development and mini ranches. What they aren't is made for long term work, they're not as heavy duty as a real ag tractor, all the gucci stuff will break in a few years and they'll get traded in on the newest model with even more gucci stuff on it. They're made to use for a couple of years and get traded in on a newer model, kind of like the mentality of automobile manufacturers. Ag tractors on the other hand tend to last for years and years, are build very sturdy, and have less complicated systems that are easy to fix. They're made for the long haul and aren't as disposable as the CUT's. Think of the old ford 9N's that you might see sitting in the barn around old farmsteads out in the country, 50 years old and still getting the job done. The benefit to ag tractors is that often they're less expensive than a CUT due to the lack of gucci accessories that drive the price up.

Stay away from the grey market and second tier makers. Parts availability is the reason. All tractors break. Some break more than others but all will break sooner or later. I don't care if the dealer has a good service center or not, anyone can work on a tractor. What I do care about is whether or not I can get parts for it. If I can get the parts I can get it fixed. You'll always be able to get parts for a deere, kubota, new holland, or massey. All bets are off on a grey market tractor and no one really knows whether or not mahindra, kioti, montana, century, branson, etc will be in business a few years from now. Parts availability is the real reason you want a first tier brand, the others might make a decent tractor, but let someone else be the guinea pig when they need parts, not you.

I think you'd be well served by 45 or so horsepower basic ag tractor from any of those makes you mentioned. Don't forget massey ferguson if they have dealers nearby, they're a first tier brand also and make a fine tractor.