Homes… Your Thoughts… Old or New?

[masseyrider]

Post and beam has been trendy for a while Mr. Fuddy...this too will change! And it's comparatively expensive to build. I'm like Mr. Winterdeere, finding old farmhouse styles being very welcoming!

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...and lots of somebody's wanted this in 1975...View attachment 3257418

When I was in High School around that time I took a drafting class.
Once we were taught the basics of drafting we were to design and draft our dream house.
Almost to the person everyone had a sunken living room.
I always thought they were dumb.

 

[Captain Dirty]

Our house is an 18th century cape with low (7') ceilings and correspondingly low ridge. When we put on an addition we had the aesthetic consideration that the addition ridge not be higher than that of the main house. Additionally, we wanted the height to display a family heirloom grandfather clock. Accordingly, there was an 8" step-down to a 20 x 20' family room--a sunken living room that proved a stroke of luck when my toddler sons started playing with Legos. The errant Legos stayed in the LegoPit.

 

[Oaktree]

Almost to the person everyone had a sunken living room.
I always thought they were dumb.

Wasn't that a design fad at one time? Trouble is, once the fad goes out of style, you're stuck with a house that's kind of a white elephant.
When I was in my early teens, my aunt & uncle had a house that looked like a ranch house on the outside, but had 3 levels inside...almost like an upper story & a lower story on one side and a room or two that were midway between the two on the other side. This would have been in the early 60s. Even then I thought it was a dumb layout.

 

[4570Man]

When I was in High School around that time I took a drafting class.
Once we were taught the basics of drafting we were to design and draft our dream house.
Almost to the person everyone had a sunken living room.
I always thought they were dumb.

I’m working on a remodel job now where we built the sunken living room back to level. I think a sunken room is pretty dumb. Why would you want to make a fall hazard for absolutely no benefit?

 

[Jstpssng]

I had to look them up as I had no clue what people were referring to. That sounds like more expense in building, and an oddity to keep heat from circulating well.
I am naturally cheap so come from the school of keep it simple.

 

[etpm]

By "attention to detail" are you referring to fussy stuff like carved woodwork, embossed tin ceilings, gingerbread outside trim, etc? Not all old houses were built that way.

Yeah, fussy stuff. I loved pressed tin ceilings. My wife nixed that idea for the main room with the vaulted ceilings. I love bead board too. That idea also got nixed but it may still happen. You are correct though, not all old houses are full of fussy stuff. Still, even they can have character from use and gems like wavy glass. Wavy because it was cheaper back in the day, now it's expensive.
Eric

 

[etpm]

I’m working on a remodel job now where we built the sunken living room back to level. I think a sunken room is pretty dumb. Why would you want to make a fall hazard for absolutely no benefit?

Yep, fall hazard. As one who has fallen down stairs more than once I totally agree. Broke three ribs recently falling down the basement stairs.
Eric

 

[WinterDeere]

...gems like wavy glass. Wavy because it was cheaper back in the day, now it's expensive.

That's the second claim about wavy glass in this thread, and this one is at least partly true. The other claim was that the glass is wavy because it flows over time, which implies it was once perfectly planar and clear, which is less likely.

The size of the divided lights in a window is also something that changed quite a bit with time, and some historians have tried using this to estimate the age of old houses. But at least in the case of my house, it proved to be an unreliable method, with their best guesses later proven wrong by hard documentation. The reality is that there has long been a range of what's available, both with regard to size of lights and clarity, for those willing to spend more or less. Seeing a divided-light double-hung window with 8x10 inch panes might cause one to think the house must be 19th century, ignoring the fact that those in the late 18th century could buy panes that large, if they had no care as to the cost.

Moreover, sash could be replaced within existing windows, which may in fact be the case in my house. We know the window frames all date to 1775, and the sash are all identical, making one assume they're also 1775. But it is possible they were all replaced at the same time, re-fitting sash of the same size but fewer and larger panes into the old frames, during a mid-1800's rennovation.

Our original glass is wavy enough that I can tell when there's something or someone in our yard, but I could never actually identify the person without finding a newer replacement pane to peer through. Looking through a few of our waviest windows you could have trouble even telling if it's even a person or a deer!

If anyone wants to argue about glass flowing over time without being heated, read this:

How does glass change over time?

If left undisturbed at room temperature, glass really doesn’t change — no matter how old it is — says Michael Cima, Professor of Materials Science and Engineering and Faculty Director of the MIT Glass…

engineering.mit.edu

 

[ultrarunner]

Spent a fair amount of time in Materials/Plastics back in Engineering class with the distinction between amorphous and crystalline emphasized…

The question "Is glass solid or liquid?" has no clear answer.

In terms of molecular dynamics and thermodynamics, it is possible to justify various different views that it is a highly viscous liquid, an amorphous solid, or simply that glass is another state of matter that is neither liquid nor solid. The difference is semantic.

Even in terms of its material properties, we can do little better. No clear definition exists of the distinction between solids and highly viscous liquids. All such phases or states of matter are idealisations of real material properties.

Nevertheless, from a more commonsense point of view, glass should be considered a solid since it is rigid according to everyday experience.

The use of the term "supercooled liquid" to describe glass still persists, but is considered by many to be an unfortunate misnomer that should be avoided.

In any case, claims that glass panes in old windows have deformed due to glass flow have never been substantiated. Examples of Roman glassware and calculations based on measurements of glass visco-properties indicate that these claims cannot be true.

The observed features are more easily explained as a result of the imperfect methods used to make glass window panes before the float glass process was invented.

Is glass liquid or solid?

 

[Oaktree]

The observed features are more easily explained as a result of the imperfect methods used to make glass window panes before the float glass process was invented.

Yeah, I never bought the whole "glass flowed" theory either, especially since many of these old windows the ripples are vertical, implying that the glass flowed horizontally.

 

[WinterDeere]

Glass flows... in theory. But not in any way actually measureable on a human time scale at room temperature. Much more heat and many more centuries would be required, to satisfy some of the claims that have been made about how glass became wavy.

 

[etpm]

Years ago I looked into how glass panes were made. Before float glass was invented. There were various methods employed. One method involved glass blowers making really large discs and after the glass was cooled and annealed the discs were cut into rectangles. This glass was pretty consistent in thickness but if someone wanted truly flat and ripple free glass the rectangular panes would be ground and polished. I can't imagine just how much labor must have gone into this process. Anyway, there evolved other methods of making flat glass, such as pouring the glass onto large cast iron flats where it was allowed to cool enough to become solid but not cool enough to crack. It was then annealed.This glass was not particularly ripple free, but it was cheap compared to ground and polished glass. I love the old rippled glass panes and it seems like the reproduction stuff, the modern stuff, doesn't have the same look.
Eric

 

[ultrarunner]

A lot of 1922 windows have multiple lites and also some angular.

What I like about small lites is cheap and easy to repair!

Still remember a 4-plex that was updated and the owner wanted double pane with white grid windows so that is what we did.

They looked nice and inside was quieter with double glaze…

The owner came to regret it because replacement glass had to be ordered, took time as the window had to be boarded and the cost increased at least 8 fold.

 

[Dftodd]

Also it's often easier to get permits for a remodel, which can be a big deal in places where permits take a lot of time and money. I used to see this a lot in parts of the SF bay area.

The only permits required are a plumbing and septic permits where I live. No building permits, electrical, or HVAC permits.

Plumbing permits required because we tied into city water.

If we drilled a well, the only permit required would be for the septic. And that's because we are under 10 acres.

If I had 10 acres or more, the only permit required would be plumbing if I tied into city water.

 

[Dftodd]

When I was in High School around that time I took a drafting class.
Once we were taught the basics of drafting we were to design and draft our dream house.
Almost to the person everyone had a sunken living room.
I always thought they were dumb.

My aunts place has a sunken living room. I found it treacherous and odd. Especially in low light if your not used to the place.

Her husband designed and built the house himself.

40 years later, he regrets the decision, but the house is paid for, so they deal with it.

 

[Dftodd]

Wasn't that a design fad at one time? Trouble is, once the fad goes out of style, you're stuck with a house that's kind of a white elephant.
When I was in my early teens, my aunt & uncle had a house that looked like a ranch house on the outside, but had 3 levels inside...almost like an upper story & a lower story on one side and a room or two that were midway between the two on the other side. This would have been in the early 60s. Even then I thought it was a dumb layout.

Had a friend in highschool whose house was a split level.

I always thought that was odd as well.

The split level was where the bedrooms were, and had the basement under it.

So the basement only covered half the house and the living room and kitchen had a crawl space under it.

I always thought it was odd since the second story was only 6ft higher then the living room and kitchen area, with a 3ft hallway with open railing going the lengh of the living room.

The house was beautiful, but awkward.

 

[Dftodd]

I had to look them up as I had no clue what people were referring to. That sounds like more expense in building, and an oddity to keep heat from circulating well.
I am naturally cheap so come from the school of keep it simple.

The sunken living room was awkward in my aunts home since you had 3 steps to go down into the area.

I could see myself falling going in there the first time in dim light.

 

[ultrarunner]

Had a friend in highschool whose house was a split level.

I always thought that was odd as well.

The split level was where the bedrooms were, and had the basement under it.

So the basement only covered half the house and the living room and kitchen had a crawl space under it.

I always thought it was odd since the second story was only 6ft higher then the living room and kitchen area, with a 3ft hallway with open railing going the lengh of the living room.

The house was beautiful, but awkward.

Grew up in a split level on one of the very few on a level lot… all the other lots were sloped side to side and the spilt was a natural conforming to the topography.

On my parents the crawl space had 6’ headroom and I had it filled with antique car parts

 

[ultrarunner]

The only permits required are a plumbing and septic permits where I live. No building permits, electrical, or HVAC permits.

Plumbing permits required because we tied into city water.

If we drilled a well, the only permit required would be for the septic. And that's because we are under 10 acres.

If I had 10 acres or more, the only permit required would be plumbing if I tied into city water.

Hard to imagine because where I live a public hearing is required to remove a planted backyard tree, pull and reset a toilet, replace a gas range or dryer, replace a framed window, etc.

 

[Dftodd]

Hard to imagine because where I live a public hearing is required to remove a planted backyard tree l, pull and reset a toilet, replace a gas range, replace a framed window, etc.

Nothing like that here. The county offices would laugh you out of there if you stopped to get a permit to change your toilet out.

The only exception here is anything on the historic registry. Then you really have to watch what you do inside or out

Anything outside city limits stays on the market for a super long time if it's on the historic registry.