Homes… Your Thoughts… Old or New?

[WinterDeere]

The last project benefits from the advances in technology and efficiency using a 95% boiler for radiant heat and a 24 SEER heat pump for AC and spring and fall heat.

It has always appeared to me that mechanical components such as boilers and heat pumps, used to be designed from a standpoint of longevity over performance, with the mindset that these componets should last lifetimes. But they never did, and even if they could, technology would pass them by. Who wants to keep an old 65% efficiency boiler for 30 years past the introduction of 90% or even 95% efficient boilers?

So, we need to consider what "better" means, when people start talking about old vs. new being "better".

The same has happened with kitchen appliances. Our mothers picked our their avacado green or mustard yellow oven/range set and dishwashers, with the mindset that they'd keep them forever. But who wanted an avocado green oven and range past 1978?

It turns out that appliances which are built as cheaply as possible, with maximized efficiency and an expected lifespan of maybe 20 years is the sweet spot. After that, they've gone out of style, anyway.

Insulation is R50 in the ceiling and R28 in the walls. Modern doors and windows that seal up tight. An Energy Recovery ventilation system that maintains a positive pressure when burning a fire, or running appliances that vent to the outside. All recessed LED lighting, etc.
None of which is going to be native to an old house.

Insulation is nice, most of my house has none. But I did some comparisons ca.2012 on a bunch of my 1770's windows against Andersen's best mid-1990's products, then only 15-20 years old, and I found that the 250 year old windows actually outperformed the newer ones by a healthy margin, when fitted with a good storm window. This was done with fairly extensive thermal imaging and thermocouple measurements, both inside and out.

The older windows may draft just slightly more, but when comparing the 4" air gap formed between an old traditional double hung and an exterior storm, to the 5mm air or argon gap of any modern double-glazed window, the old phrase "there's replacement for displacement" comes to mind. You just can't beat a 4" air gap with 0.2", no matter what else you wrap around it.

That’s not to say that you can’t cut corners in construction, either old or new, but if you want to do things right, new is the clear winner if you want to capitalize on what’s available.

? Not sure what this means. Do you mean housing inventory? Lots of old houses, depending on how you define "old", in some of our surrounding historic villages and farm land.

 

[Captain Dirty]

(Inadvertantly) shooting oneself in the foot.

The same has happened with kitchen appliances. Our mothers picked our their avacado green or mustard yellow oven/range set and dishwashers, with the mindset that they'd keep them forever. But who wanted an avocado green oven and range past 1978?

It turns out that appliances which are built as cheaply as possible, with maximized efficiency and an expected lifespan of maybe 20 years is the sweet spot. After that, they've gone out of style, anyway.

Owing to low ceiling height in our old farmhouse (standard cabinets would have left less than 1' between cabinet bottom and counter top) we opted for custom cabinets when we renovated the kitchen in '79. We also bought a 40" Almond-colored GE range with double ovens. We love the stove, but GE has changed the burners (a diligent search can find replacement burners but I have had to remanufacture the porcelain receptacles), and about 25 years ago GE and other makers ceased to offer 40" ranges. I did find a 1 meter (39.37") Italian range for a little less than $$$$10K. When I asked my carpenter neighbor what it would cost for a new counter with 36" or 48" opening for a range, he said I should budget about $10K.

 

[Hughman]

(Inadvertantly) shooting oneself in the foot.



Owing to low ceiling height in our old farmhouse (standard cabinets would have left less than 1' between cabinet bottom and counter top) we opted for custom cabinets when we renovated the kitchen in '79. We also bought a 40" Almond-colored GE range with double ovens. We love the stove, but GE has changed the burners (a diligent search can find replacement burners but I have had to remanufacture the porcelain receptacles), and about 25 years ago GE and other makers ceased to offer 40" ranges. I did find a 1 meter (39.37") Italian range for a little less than $$$$10K. When I asked my carpenter neighbor what it would cost for a new counter with 36" or 48" opening for a range, he said I should budget about $10K.

We are in the same boat. We have a 40" dual fuel range that is starting to flake out. Virtually impossible to find a replacement in that size. The control panel is no longer available so I will either have to find someone to do a custom refirb of the electronics or start thinking about a kitchen remodel.

 

[ultrarunner]

Building inspectors range from good to pretty inept. The local building inspector should probably work for Boeing who apparently needs some quality inspections. But how is even the laziest inspector worse than no inspections at all? At least most people design the build with inspections in mind and build on a concrete foundation and span the floor joists adequately. It used to be relatively common to skip the foundation and prop it up on stumps and span 2x6 floor joists 16 ft.

Inspectors that mandate not applicable standards and/or difficult to schedule are my pet peeves.

 

[ultrarunner]

I believe new construction can check all the boxes without question but the wild card is the quality of the work performed…

My AZ friends like the layout, floor plan and amenities but shocked at the defects uncovered…

There is no doubt in my mind that new construction has the potential to be far better than old.
I have turned an 1800’s barn into living space, built a home from scratch 40 years ago, and just completed a retirement home for myself and my wife.

The last project benefits from the advances in technology and efficiency using a 95% boiler for radiant heat and a 24 SEER heat pump for AC and spring and fall heat. Insulation is R50 in the ceiling and R28 in the walls. Modern doors and windows that seal up tight. An Energy Recovery ventilation system that maintains a positive pressure when burning a fire, or running appliances that vent to the outside. All recessed LED lighting, etc.
None of which is going to be native to an old house.

That’s not to say that you can’t cut corners in construction, either old or new, but if you want to do things right, new is the clear winner if you want to capitalize on what’s available.

 

[ultrarunner]

Avocado and Coffee and Harvest Gold were the colors of the late 1960’s early 70’s.

There were others like Turquoise that never hit mainstream…

Almond was the pushback for a very long time and then Black and Stainless followed by Bisque..

At least in my little corner of California.

Some old fashioned new appliances like Speed Queen much sought after but Green regs have forced much of the changes trading efficiency sacrificing longevity in many cases…

 

[ultrarunner]

Who doesn’t like efficiency?

However I can make the case that payback is often overlooked.

Plenty of 60-75 year old central furnaces here but we seldom need much heat or cooling so why change out for 2 weeks annually?

Moms home with everything old is 2350 square feet of 1958 split level home and electricity month in and month out is always 360 kWh monthly.

 

[FullMetalBucket]

Who doesn’t like efficiency?

However I can make the case that payback is often overlooked.

Plenty of 60-75 year old central furnaces here but we seldom need much heat or cooling so why change out for 2 weeks annually?

I see that.. the goal of efficiency is to save money, but if it cost 10k or more to replace a working furnace and you only run it for 2 weeks, it’s going to take forever to pay for itself.

Not an issue here in the North East. Makes more sense to replace an old inefficient heating system because of how often the thing runs.

 

[WinterDeere]

I see that.. the goal of efficiency is to save money, but if it cost 10k or more to replace a working furnace and you only run it for 2 weeks, it’s going to take forever to pay for itself.

This has been my gripe with refrigerators. We've been in this house 14 years, and I've honestly lost count of the number of kitchen refrigerators we've been through. The last one failed inside warranty, something like 20 months old, but warranty service was so slow that I just replaced it.

Sure, maybe they contain less refrigerant than older units, and use slightly less electricity. But when you need to manufacture and then landfill a new one every second year, I'm not convinced the net savings is in the right direction, no matter how it's measured.

 

[BnRidge]

When contractors come into a place to do a job, say replace a furnace or add a kitchen hood/fan, they generally do the job they are called on to do, and all previous work is ignored. I'm currently renovating an 1846, 180yr old farm house. The things piled one atop another is kind of funny sometimes. It is very satisfying, where I can remove entire swaths of work done one on top of another and clear the way for up to date ideas and materials (with the time period in mind, yet to 2025 codes).
On the other hand, I worked in the sheetmetal trade 10yrs in the 80s. What went on behind the scenes was interesting to watch. When I built in 08, it was by a local contractor, been in business 40yrs, was 70yrs old, carried a stick ruler in his coveralls. All subs I think were building their last home because they all retired soon after. Once it was closed in and drywall primed I was able to complete the rest. People call it the new old place, with the theme designed around 1918, back before power tools and air nailers.