House flooding from nowhere?

[jinman]

My daughter has a problem. Her two-story house is flooding downstairs, but neither she nor the plumber can find a leak. The meter shows no flow whatsoever with the house pressurized. We ran all the showers, sink drains, washing machine, and toilets. Nothing caused any leaks. Her carpet is soaked and now pulled back away from the wall where the water is coming from. I did not mention the dishwasher in the list above because after running the dishwasher, the water will start to seep out from the wall in the area below the water heater which is upstairs. The dishwasher is about 12 feet away from where the water starts to seep out from under the baseboard. There's one other thing, the floor beside the dishwasher is very warm. It's tile on top of a concrete slab. I walked across it in my stocking feet and it was very warm.

There are two possibilities that I can think could cause this problem. One is that the diswasher drain is clogged and water is being pumped up and out the drain vent. I know this should show up on the roof, but I'm thinking that it might tie into the emergency vent for her water heater. I've even considered that her water heater might be overpressured and lifting the emergency vent. If that vent is not sealed properly, it could be leaking.

Anytime I feel a warm slab, I think of hot water pooling under the slab. I'm also thinking that if the drain is broken and water is going under the slab, hydrostatic pressure might be pushing water up through any opening in the slab like around a drain line or water pipe entering the house. These are all in the walls and water would show up along the baseboards. So far, that's what is happening and no walls are wet or damaged.

My daughter's insurance company is sending out someone who can do ultrasonic scans to find leaks. I would expect they might also be able to map the source of the hot floor, but I don't know.

What does the TBN braintrust think? This is a head-scratcher for me.

 

[dex3361]

Some insurance companies have Infrared cameras that you can see the hot or cold area from moisture. Its a pricey tool but can help in such searches. It sounds as though you might be on the right track with the dishwasher.

 

[beenthere]

Possibly a pipe in a wall that froze and cracked? Notice you've been getting some cold air in TX.

 

[dave1949]

Jinman,

If the hot water tank relief is opening, you should be able to feel that pipe warm up or hear water running. Maybe you could watch for that while running the dishwasher. But, if that is the cause, other hot water demands should cause the same to happen, not just the dishwasher.

That the water appears at a wall base, could mean the water originates under the slab. The wall may be anchored with ramset shots, lag bolts, etc. These could provide an 'escape' path for water under pressure.

I picture dishwasher pumps as pretty wimpy things. I don't know if they have the capacity to push water very far up a vent pipe.

Good luck.
Dave.

 

[Bird]

When you mentioned water seeping out from a baseboard, I first wondered if it might be the same problem our daughter had with her two story house last summer. The builder finally decided the problem was a bricklayer who failed to leave the weep holes in the bottom course of bricks. Sounded weird to me, but they removed the bottom course of bricks and re-did that, with weep holes, and so far no more problem. Of course they also re-painted inside, replaced carpet, etc. But I don't think your daughter's problem will be the same.

 

[jinman]

Randall: I think that's the device they are using, but it's actually a high-tech plumber instead of the insurance company that owns the machine.

Beenthere: None of these pipes are on outside walls and all inside walls have never been below 60 degrees during our coldest weather. I guess it's possible, but I don't think probable.

Dave: That's exactly right about the water heater emergency vent. I was trying to explain that over the phone to my daughter and SIL last night, but I don't think they fully understood what I was saying. They didn't even know there was an emergency pressure relief or a cutoff valve on the cold water line above the heater until I told them about it. Like so many kids these days, they don't have a clue how some of the simplest things work. My daughter knew she had a warm floor, but it wasn't until I told her it normally indicates a water leak below the slab that she even considered it more than a curiosity. I'm beginning to believe that we should offer a class in college on home ownership and the basics of how things work in your home.

Bird: I walked around the house and every brick in the first tier has condensation drains on each side of the brick. The bricks are vented very well. I went around with the plumber who was checking to make sure there was no place where dirt added to a flowerbed was up over the first tier of brick. This water is definitely not coming from there. I also had my son-in-law crawl up into his attic with a flashlight and check all the vent stacks to look for water running down from the roof. With the snow we've had lately, I wanted to make sure the vent stacks weren't letting water seep by the seal and run down the pipe. All the attic is dry, so that's not the source either.

BTW: The washing machine seems to drain normally with no backups or leaks from it; however, it's about 15 feet away from from the dishwasher near the garage and may be on a different drain that wouldn't normally back feed into the diswasher drain.

 

[MF1455v]

Good luck on that one Jim. I have a similar puzzle just before we moved from our house in Georgetown. Luckily it was contained to the garage.

The garage was about 3 feet lower that the rest of the house, with a sink and water softener against the wall. The wall was concrete for that 3 feet. I bumped the wall with the edge of a shelf and water started running out of the wall. First I thought I had hit a water line but it stopped after about 10 gallons was on the garage floor. I could run water in any drain on that wall and here would come the water again. After doing some exploratory surgery with my hammer drill on chisel I found the issue. There was a drain line fitting end flush with the edge of the wall. It had duct tape over the end and then mortared over. The duct tape had held for 10 years until I bumped and tore it. It was even lower that the septic line leaving the house so it had to fill before anything would leave the house. What a mess.

James

 

[JB4310]

Having trouble getting a good picture of what the problem is your describing.

But I'll just take some wild guesses. Where ever copper water pipes go thru concrete they are vulnerable to deterioration and possible leaking. It sounds like maybe there are lines under the floor going to the dishwasher? though you said the meter was not moving.

In your case seems you narrowed it down to something with that DW, either feed lines or drain line. Another thought, is there a washing machine drain in that vicinity, most of the drain system is closed but where that washer dumps into the drain it's usually a loose fit, so if there is a slow draining system it can back up out of there.

I have seen on many occasions water leaking in basements from water service lines, meter does not move because it is leaking before the meter right where the line comes thru the foundation wall, usually on the outside and the water goes down under the footing and pushes up on the floor.

Curious what you find. JB.

 

[Bird]

Like so many kids these days, they don't have a clue how some of the simplest things work.

Yep, I learned some of those things the hard way myself. And I'll never forget a niece calling me one morning to ask for my help with a copper water line in their attic that had frozen and burst. Fortunately, it was an easy one to get to both ends and replace, but someone had told her husband you had to heat those sweated joints to get them apart, so he had used up a whole box of kitchen matches trying to heat it before they called me.

Jim, you didn't mention how old this house is, did you? I had an aunt and uncle in Dallas many years ago with the main water line coming into the house being copper in or under the concrete slab. When it deteriorated and leaked, the plumber cut it off outside the house and ran a line up into the attic to bring the water in. But of course that wasn't warm water and they could hear water running under the house.

We bought a new house in 1977 and only a month or so later, while I was out of town, my wife noticed a tiny bit of water coming out from the bottom of an interior wall and called the builder. They found a sweated copper joint leaking in that wall and repaired it.

I have seen on many occasions water leaking in basements from water service lines, meter does not move because it is leaking before the meter right where the line comes thru the foundation wall, usually on the outside and the water goes down under the footing and pushes up on the floor.

JB, I understand that (and bet Jim does, too) because I did gas leakage surveys up north where meters were frequently in the basement, but most folks down here have never seen such. The houses are on a concrete slab, so there's no basement and no meter under the house.

 

[dave1949]

Yep, I learned some of those things the hard way myself. And I'll never forget a niece calling me one morning to ask for my help with a copper water line in their attic that had frozen and burst. Fortunately, it was an easy one to get to both ends and replace, but someone had told her husband you had to heat those sweated joints to get them apart, so he had used up a whole box of kitchen matches trying to heat it before they called me.

That's just too funny! He gets an A for effort at least. Glad he didn't burn down the house.

I was thinking these days, with an internet connection, you can find a write-up or video on how to do just about any home maintenance task. Or an explanation of how things work. So much info at your fingertips these days it's truly incredible.

Kids are all different, some wade in where angels fear to tread and others don't really want to get hands-on. I am guessing any homeowner-type classes in high school would get a pretty good draw of students even as an elective. Unfortunately, many schools just don't offer those types of classes anymore.

In my previous life as a shop teacher, I offered a class on basic auto care. Real simple things like change a tire, light bulbs, wipers, check/change fluids, battery care, etc. It was always well attended, over half were girls. I had two old junkers that still ran enough for my purposes- nobody could mess up their own cars. I would guide them through doing something on their own vehicles if they needed to. They had no desire to become mechanics of course, but it was a confidence builder for kids whose father's never take the time to teach the basics.
Dave.

 

[EddieWalker]

Jim,

Sounds like you've covered the basics and most likey sources of the water. I'd check the supply lines with a flashlight and dry paper towel to make sure, 100% that there isn't a slow leak with the water pressure on. I'd do the same with the refrigerator supply lines if they have an ice maker.

The laundry dischage can easily get plugged up with lint and only overflow after several loads of water. It's one of those things that 80 or 90% of the water gets through, but it's far enough down that with one load, the remaining water doesn't overflow. Then when you do the next load, the same thing happens, but this time, theres already water in the line and it overflows.

I've never seen that happen with a dishwasher, but it's possible. If it was the dishwasher drain line, it would go up the sink first, so that's probably not the problem.

Where is the air conditioner? I've seen allot of leaks from AC units in attics. The condensation drain lines get fouled up overtime and then the emergency backup line comes into play, and it gets pluged up. I went into one attic where the company before me left a bowl under the emergancy drain to catch the water instead of opening up the pluged drain line. When the bowl was full, it overflowed and there was a leak in the attic in the middle of summer without any rain.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[Dutch445]

I agree that it sounds like a leak possible where
a pipe enters the slab. A friend of mine just had the
same thing happen, but his was using a lot of hot water,
and his water heater was built onto a small wood platform, and
the leak was underneath that. once he tore out the heater and
little platform, there was the pipe going down into the slab, leaking
at that point. there was also a small piece of re-rod right next
to the pipe that the pipe was probably tied to for the concrete pour.
he ended up running some of the newer plastic pipes thru his walls
over to that bathroom where this line was headed. but it leaked a long time
before he knew what was going on.

 

[jinman]

You guys are all asking questions that I've gone over and over in my mind. That's good, because it means that there is not something I've missed.

I don't live near my daughter (about 80 miles away) and that's caused me to advise and ask questions mostly over the telephone. We did go by her house last Saturday afternoon when the plumber was there and that's when I did all my hands-on checking. For what he could do, I thought the plumber was very thorough in his checks. He had a flashlight and was looking and feeling in all the correct spots. The water had been on, but nothing used in the house for over 1 hour and the meter at the street showed absolutely no movement. This is not a pressure leak. It has to be associated with a drain. At least that's what it shows by the water meter. The plumber assured me that any slow leak would show on the meter, especially after 1 hour, but the meter was dead steady and not moving. My son-in-law had opened the wall behind the downstairs bathroom sink and also in a small coat closet in the entryway. Of course, that baseboard and bottom plate inside the wall was moist from the night before, but it was not very wet nor flowing.

They did find one 3" PVC drain that showed shoddy work. Sometimes the rough-in of drains is not exactly in the right spot. I'm told that there is a sleeve you can put around the PVC and use electric current to heat up the pipe so that it is soft and can be slightly manipulated. What we found was that they had instead used a propane torch to heat up the PVC and bend it slightly about 6" above the slab. The pipe had burn marks all around its perimeter where it was heated with the torch. Even so, with repeated flushings and shower drains from above, that PVC never leaked a drop. However, if it turns out that this is the drain pipe leaking beneath the house, I think my daughter surely has a claim against the builder.

Everyone has the right idea here. First, you make sure there is no pressure leak and then look for drain leaks. I think we are well into the 2nd phase of this and probably the scan will show results. I believe my daughter told me that they would not be able to get to her house until today or tomorrow.

What I know about this leak is it seems to be delayed. From what we can tell, it occurs only after the dishwasher has run or maybe after my teenage grand daughters take long showers. I believe the water is not backing up the drains because it is pooling beneath the slab and then slowly seeping up and into the house through some tight cracks or feedthrus. I know the dishwasher ties into the kitchen sink drain at about 2' above the level of the slab. The washer drain is also about 30" above the slab behind the washer. There are no downstairs showers or tubs for water to rise into. Actually, when my daughter called the plumber last week, they thought it was a downstairs toilet and replaced the wax sealing ring. That turned out not to be the problem and it is not leaking around the commode at all.

My daughter's carpet was soaked and she went through a dozen towels building a dam to stop the flow of water coming from under the wall. It sure seems like a lot of water to just come from leaking drains that are seeking level before draining on away down the pipe. perhaps the pipe is broken and offset, leading to a clog or partial clog with mud/dirt under the slab. That's what I'm thinking they will find. I just cannot get beyond that warm floor I felt in the kitchen. I remember looking at my daughter and asking if she had floor heat before realizing how silly a question that is in Texas. The next day, she had the flood.

Bird, you asked about the age of the house. My guess is about 10 years. This is a fairly new addition just east of the Bell Helicopter Plant in Hurst, TX. I've included a snapshot from the Google Earth Street View below. I've also included a snapshot of the inside of the house showing the bar/counter between the kitchen and living room. On the hidden side of the counter at the end is where the dishwasher is. The sink is about in the middle of this counter. The floor at the end of the counter is where it was very warm. Beyond the refrigerator is the hallway to the garage and the laundry room. Behind the refrigerator is a pantry room where most of the water seems to start running. Above the pantry is the water heater in a 2nd floor closet.

The air conditioner/heat pump evaporator is in the attic, but it has been on heat pump for over a month, so there is no condensation and its pan is dry.

 

[Bird]

Jim, if the house is that old, would they still have any recourse with the builder? I would not have thought so, but hopefully they would.

 

[jinman]

Jim, if the house is that old, would they still have any recourse with the builder? I would not have thought so, but hopefully they would.

Exactly! I'm just not sure of the age or the law. Her insurance company will probably pay and then choose whether to bring any action.

Of course, this is all just speculation. There may be nothing wrong with what the builder did and this may be just settling of the house due to our clay soil. She wouldn't be the first to have that happen. It's a fact of life in N. Texas as you know.

 

[Bird]

this may be just settling of the house due to our clay soil. She wouldn't be the first to have that happen. It's a fact of life in N. Texas as you know

Yep, all of last week there was a foundation repair crew with truck, trailer, and other equipment working on a corner house at the end of the block in my current neighborhood.

 

[JB4310]

Jim, if the house is that old, would they still have any recourse with the builder? I would not have thought so, but hopefully they would.

Around here it's only 1 year,


Jim, I am intrigued, and frustrated I can't come up any other suggestions at this time, the fact that you had a plumber there on the grounds and he couldn't find the leak makes me that much more curious.

I'm usually the guy that gets called in this situation, often times a leaking hot water heater, (10 years seems to be the magic number now days) is the cause, even after I ask them on the phone 3 times are they sure it's not the WH, when I get there it is

Especially since you felt warm floor, but I don't know, seems a stretch for a second floor WH to not show problems till it got way down under the kitchen floor.

There's alot of geographical differences that put me at a disadvantage to figuring this out, Like Bird mentioned you all are on slabs there, where we mostly have basements. We do have split levels and raised ranches that do have slabs at or close to grade.
Just the idea of WH on the 2nd floor is foreign to me, but with out a basement, I see why.

One problem I solved was a raised ranch with a slab on grade, no one could figure out the source of the leak, not plumbers, not water dept inspectors, meter was not turning.
It was a leaking base board heating pipe, part of the loop that dipped down under the floor at the door to the garage (Corroded copper pipe in concrete). It's a low pressure line and could leak quite a bit before the low pressure valve would call for make up water at the boiler. that's why no one saw the meter moving, it only drew water every hour or so.

Needless to say I was the hero in the home owner's mind that day , he had people coming in and out of his house for 3 days with no results.

JB.

 

[sellercreek]

Have you had a lot of rain lately?

 

[JB4310]

Have you had a lot of rain lately?

I was gonna bring that up, but looking at the pic of the house it looks crowned on the lot (slab is above grade), so don't think it could be ground water, unless the house is built into a hill on the back.

Another thing it could be if there was alot of rain is the weather boot at the plumbing vent stack on the roof, we do see that often and the leak sometimes does not show up till down lower in the house.

.

 

[Bird]

I just cannot get beyond that warm floor I felt in the kitchen.

I'm sure you've considered the location of the HVAC outlets. If I walk barefoot to our kitchen, there's a very noticeable warm area on the floor, but in our case, it's because the ceiling heat outlet is right above it.

A warm floor in the kitchen, with the water heater upstairs, does seem very odd.