How accurate is a property line survey?

[Eagleview]

A very good point has been made . It's YOUR fence on YOUR property , what are you telling me about it for ? Do what you like with it . I think how it may have come about is that the string line has been run on the center line and then the posts stood against that line and back filled , which would make it around 3" out on one side . If he wants a block fence and you want timber i would let him put up his block fence at his cost and you clad the other side with timber at your cost , making sure the join is in fact on the center line .

 

[RonMar]

Well I am no lawer(but I did sleep in a holiday in last night). When he says he is going to sue, say "For 3 inches?, Go right ahead" What is the worst you have to loose? Even using his survey, 3" is not much. If you go to court, I would take in any old pics you have of the place showing the history of the fence.

You have 30 years of history showing that fence as being the delinieation of your property and the adjoining lot. And for that length of time, you have honestly believed that to be the accurate line based on the old surveys. 3" surely does not show any intent to defraud, by whoever built the fence. 30' might, but not 3". Heck 3" is probably less than the thickness of the fence.

Oh, and when it is your turn to speak to the judge, I woud start, just how you started here. "My new neighbor approached me to ask me to pay half HIS new fence cost, to which I refused. Then he had his survey, and here we are arguing over 3"..."

It was mentioned before, that existing structures are rarely torn down, that is why it is important to catch transgressors before they get something built and can establish history. Worst case, that is all the judge will order, as there are surely no damages associated with 3" of property use. That is what you would be out if you cave to his threats/demands, so what is the risk? Politely call his bluff, then go have your day in court, if your new "Neighbor" is willing to risk the lawer fees on 3" of gain...

Since you have been using and maintaining that 3" strip for so long, I think you have an excellent case for adverse possession. When you call his bluff, you might ask him if he knows what adverse possession is. If he dosn't, tell him to ask his lawer about it...

Good Luck.

 

[tractor888]

I'm just thinking here..

You take the fence down carefully, saving all. Cut the posts flush with the ground. Move off to a safe spot.

Let him build his new wall..

Now stand your old rustic panels against the new wall, with any luck you will just be able to fasten the posts to the new wall.

So from your side you still see your rustic fence, and he has his ugly masonry wall on his side.

I would only do that if I there's no other options... I owned the property with the fence already there for 22 years. He bought the property about 8 months go and his home still under construction. My communication skill must be horrible. Even some of you here believe that I pissed him off because I don't know how to properly say no and it's understandable for him to be come after me. I guess I'm too old to understand this stuff.

I'm just thinking out loud here. What if this situation is reversed? I move next to a millionaire's house with a wall all around his castle. I post a note at his door and ask him to call me. When he calls, I propose to him that we should tear down his wall and ask him to pay half the cost to build a cattle fence along our property line. What do you think his answer would be? Is there a better way for him to say no.

Anyway, back to my question on the topic of this thread... Anybody know that's the typcial tolerance for a property line survey? If it's +/- a few inches then I can just ignore him. I will personally defend my fence when it becomes neccesary. I don't want to waste my money on lawyers or paid to get more surveys. If the accuracy is a fractions of an inch, then I probably have to move my fence or try bluffing with the adverse procession route.... I don't think it worth the effort to actually try to claim 3 inches of land. Thanks for your comments.

 

[WarrenF]

AWWW heck....simply call up your local TV Station and tell the reporter your tale of woe. Make sure you have not shaved in a day or two, and wear some fairly grubby looking clothing, when they come out to interview you.

Tell them about your large wife and family you have to support and how this money grubbing millionaire is threatening to sue you over THREE INCHES of land. You might even wonder out loud how you can afford to buy milk for your children. Tell them with a tear in your eye how it was that very fence that attracted you and the wife to this home TWENTY TWO YEARS AGO. Make sure you show them some notches on the fence where you tracked the growth of your kids....and where the dog chased a cat through the rails. Maybe make your hands shake all the time they are there, so they can see the STRESS this tussle has created in you. Have the wife show up for the interview with her mascara smeared...tell the TV Station how she can't sleep anymore and her eyes are stained so badly from crying and her mascara running.

Then sit back and wait. If you finally get to court go to court the same way.

Seriously, don't fold because of a threatened lawsuit!!! I know some have chastised you for your answer. Were it me and someone threatened me with a lawsuit, I would tell them to first of all get in line....and please come to my house and use my phone to call your attorney. Then just sit and watch. Remember you are now playing poker. Don't fold to early and don't show your aces too soon. I would bet he is simply trying to bluff you.

 

[Wayne County Hose]

Tractor888,

After re-reading your original post, there probably isn't much you could have told this guy to not be in the situation you're in with him. probably the only thing you could have told him to satisfy him is something like this- "Okay, send me an estimate and I'll write you a check." Anything other than that, and he is going to do what he did.

Basically, just the way I am, if I wanted to put up a fence, I would not be asking my neighbor the share the cost. If you want a fence on your property, you pay for it. Maybe call him up and tell him you would like to put up a new garage on your property and maybe he could pay half.

You want to do a dirty trick? If he's never around, go move the stake 6" onto your property. Why you ask? Because........you let him put up his costly, almost impossible to move masonry fence on the line. Then, have a survey done showing the fence on your property. Now, take him to court to have that big expensive fence torn out and redone. Ever try to move a masonry fence? I don't care what kind of masonry fence, it ain't easy.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

 

[CurlyDave]

I've been told that with the GPS tools that are now used in surveys, that property lines can be identified to within fractions of an inch. Before GPS, surveys could be off by several feet, as Curly Dave noted.

So, it certainly seems possible that a GPS based survey could accurately identify such an error in a property line that was last surveyed 30 yrs ago.

Whoever told you that GPS will get things within fractions of an inch is blowing smoke. The very, very best that civilian GPS can do is +/- 10 ft. And that is under ideal conditions.

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Another note: Just because someone has a laser rangefinder which can measure to half a hundredth of a foot does not mean they can absolutely place a corner to anything like that accuracy. They might, under very good conditions, place corners relative to each other (although that is debatable), but to tie this to an absolute co-ordinate system to that accuracy is just plain not possible.


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Tractor888: I think this whole thing is going to blow over if you just stand your ground. There is no law that says you have to respond to any of what your neighbor, or his lawyer, says. In fact your best bet is not to, just don't respond. I know this is hard to do, but you will be far better off for it. But, if there is a lawsuit do not attempt to defend it yourself. At that point you have to get an attorney. No non-lawyer stands a chance in court against a lawyer.

 

[jinjimbob]

Whoever told you that GPS will get things within fractions of an inch is blowing smoke. The very, very best that civilian GPS can do is +/- 10 ft. And that is under ideal conditions.

Incorrect, the ones that surveyors use can get to witin 2 mm
Home - Leica Geosystems
They are very expensive though, they also use these for monitoring bridge movements.

A hand held unit can get to within a metre. They use a combination of satellites and land stations.

A device made for the driving/hiking market might only get within 10 feet though.

The military accuracy is also available to all commercial devices now, has been for years. They can disable this at anytime though.

 

[MikePA]

You want to do a dirty trick? If he's never around, go move the stake 6" onto your property.

Odds are the stakes you can see are simply guard stakes. The real ones marking the line are flush with the ground. So, moving them won't accomplish anything.

Also, no surveyor worth the title would be happy getting within a few feet on a survey. Particularly in this situation, a subdivision lot.

tractor888 - It's not going to cost a lot of money for you to get one of your property lines marked. Subdivision lots are the easiest to do and take the least research. Spend a few bucks to know for sure.

 

[Egon]

I'm only familiar with survey equipment and accuracies of days of long past and in Canada only and those memories are very dim indeed. If I can correctly recall there were at least four levels of accuracy for monuments starting with the Geodetic level down to the legal land system. Perhaps some of the principles remain the same.

I would assume the local land surveys are on the bottom of the list for accuracies and are taken from monuments that are of higher order. Each order will have a definite limit on accuracy variation. I would also assume that the present local surveys must all start and stop at an existing monument or pin to make a circuit and complete the loop.

Therefore I would assume there is margin of error that is present in the survey. For some reason my feeling is that three inches would fall into this allowable error margin when all the other allowances get added in.

Hopefully there is someone here who can properly explain what I'm trying to say.

For the original poster go talk to a registered land surveyor in your area to get more information on accuracy and allowable deviation.

 

[RobJ]

Now stand your old rustic panels against the new wall, with any luck you will just be able to fasten the posts to the new wall.

If I alone just paid for a new fence on my property and someone starts fastening things to it...after all this...then we're going to court. At this point I'd stay away.