How accurate is a property line survey?

[irwin]

The bad news is when I call another attorney, he scared me to death. He said under the law, I really have no choice but to hire an attorney either him or another attorney to defend me. The only way to challenge his survey to pay for another survey. If they keep going back and forth on discrepancies, it will cost more money. If I do nothing, the neighbor will win the case. Not only I have to take down the fence, I have to pay his attorney's fee, damages and penalties. It's going to cost a lot more that half the cost of a new block wall. It just doesn't make any sense to me...

The first sentence here jumped out to me, imagine someone who stands to make money trying to scare you into hiring him. If someone wants my business, they better give me something more than fear mongering.

Personally I think this may go away with a few short conversations, "If this is your land, then it's your fence".... or "if it's my fence then I'll have to get ownership legally of the land it's on", (via) "Adverse Possession" claim (both were suggested by other posters). As always a confident smile and a shrug of your shoulders while adding," but I'd rather have good neighbors, and be a good neighbor".

 

[Champy]

My two cents:

> If 3" doesn't really matter to you, give it up now. Make friends with the neighbor. Agree that he has every right to place his new fence on his property, and if he is willing, just let him move your fence 3" for you.

> I'd also point out to your neighbor that once he installs his new fence, any future surveys might just as easily go against him which is a much more expensive fix than your simple wooden fence posts. Can we compromise?

> I wouldn't fight over the survey being +/- accurate. Instead I'd go research the local zoning laws or covenants covering your property. You might find that your fence is considered "temporary" and can be placed on or near the property line....while a block / mortar fence is "permanent" and must have a certain amount of setback to be legal. If this is true, moving your fence to accomodate installing his is useless.....unless he just wants to be a b-head about the whole thing.

 

[MikePA]

I tried to google for an answer but didn't find anything that I can understand. What is the tolerance of a property line survery? It can't be exactly on the sport right? Is it a +/- a few inches? a foot or +/- a certain percentage of tolerance like any type of scientific measurements?

To answer your question, yes, a survey can be that accurate. It can be more accurate than 3 inches. When doing a survey, you start at a point and follow the deed around the property. The goal is to end up EXACTLY where you started. If you do, the deed 'closes'. So, yes, you can end up EXACTLY where you started. You can end up within 3" of where you started. Coming within 3" might be great accuracy in a 50 acre parcel, but not good enough in a 1/4 acre suburban subdivision parcel. You've never answered how large these parcels are.

The first step in doing a survey is to get a copy of the deed. You enter the directions and distances into a computer program and determine if the description is accurate, i.e., it closes. It's not unusual to find out the description in the deed doesn't close. Generally speaking, the older the deed, the more likely it wont' close.

The next step is to go into the field and find all the points described in the deed. Where do you start in the field? In cities, there can be brass markers in sidewalks. These are the best places to start a survey. In the suburbs, you look for concrete markers, iron pipes, rebar, or other landmarks. These markers can be on the property being surveyed, on adjoining properties, in the street, etc. The more permanent, the better. In the country, such markers can be hard to find, if they are there at all. Sometimes the deed says something like, "Starting from a point in the middle of Brown Street, 54' 3" from...". The key is to start from an accurate point. Sometimes you find good points to start from, sometime you don't. Sometimes when you do find points, they can be farther apart than the deed indicates or closer. So what is correct? What happens if the deed doesn't close and the measurements taken in the field don't close. Which is right?

In such cases, the surveyor can pull deeds from adjoining properties. Depending upon how many adjoining properties there are, the date of the deed, the last time a survey was done, etc. this can take a long time, and you pay for it. Oh, this dispute will go to court, now the surveyor has to be able to document and justify why he chose to believe the deed of one adjoining deed instead of another.

That's why a survey can cost a lot or a little. Unless we knew where the parcel was located, we could only quote a range for the cost of a survey. Cities, suburbs, subdivisions and small parcels were less expensive to survey than large parcels in the country.

 

[zeuspaul]

The neighbor can build a wall on his property if he wants to. He could take a chance and take down *his* fence and risk being sued. The surveyor would probably have to foot the bill if the fence were taken down due to an error in his survey.

As Mike said *measurements* can be very accurate. Certainly less than an inch. It's the interpretation of the deeds and found monuments that results in differences. Two surveyors may disagree on the value of a particular monument.

Survey GPS is very very accurate because surveyors use Differential GPS (two GPS units. One on a known point which measures the error on the known point and applies that error to the point being measured.)

I would talk to the neighbor and tell him you will remove the fence when he wants to build his wall on his property including keeping the foundation on his property. Tell him you will then have the wall surveyed at your expense just to make sure the wall is in the right place before you put the fence back on your property.

If you let him take down the fence he may destroy it. If it is indeed on his property I would assume it is his. You may have a claim to the fence but it is not worth the time and money to find out.

Zeuspaul.

 

[ihookem]

You might want to know the surveyers name and state lisence #. Look to see if it is surveyed with a pipe with the date and license # For all you know anyone could put a stick in the ground, make sure it's a real survey. I helped build a garage once and it had to be no less than 36" from the lot line. The neighbors were enemies so the neighbor had it surveyed and the surveyer said it was 2'11 63/64". We tried to talk the surveyer to just say it was 36" exactly but he wouldn't. It was literally a pencil line too close to the lot line. So yes if this guy had a real surveyer do this it's for real. In Wisconsin it takes 25 years to claim adverse possesion. I have a driveway that starts on the corner of another guys property way up north. I'm sure I'm on his land by about 10'. My neighbor does not like the fact that I put a gate up to close the drive way due to trespassers. He wanted a key for my gate so I said I keep one in the outhouse. It's been 10 years now since I put up the gate so he can make me take down the gate, and I think he thinks he can stop me from driving across his land, I have no easement but the problem for him is the driveway has been there since the 30's and I and the owner before me has been maintaining it so I'm sure I now have the right to the easement without a legal easement. I think your fence is the same thing. I had another property surveyed and flags were put on the proper line by a state licensed sureveyer. Next thing you know the neighbor had pulled the flags and threw them on our land. These things can sure make enemies out of real nice people so be carefull and always keep a cool head ok. In Wisconsin this wouldn't go before a jury, it would go before a judge that's called "calming of the courts"? I think. A judge decides and it can go either way but you have the advantage, just keep you cool at all times.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

To answer your question, yes, a survey can be that accurate. It can be more accurate than 3 inches. When doing a survey, you start at a point and follow the deed around the property. The goal is to end up EXACTLY where you started. If you do, the deed 'closes'. So, yes, you can end up EXACTLY where you started. You can end up within 3" of where you started. Coming within 3" might be great accuracy in a 50 acre parcel, but not good enough in a 1/4 acre suburban subdivision parcel. You've never answered how large these parcels are.

The first step in doing a survey is to get a copy of the deed. You enter the directions and distances into a computer program and determine if the description is accurate, i.e., it closes. It's not unusual to find out the description in the deed doesn't close. Generally speaking, the older the deed, the more likely it wont' close.

New surveys can be wrong.

I entered a recent 3 1/2 acre lot survey into my CAD lately, and found it didn't close by over 2'. I rechecked all the numbers, apparently must have been a typo on the survey or something was wrong.
Another one I did a couple nights ago closed within a fraction of an inch. line lengths were recorded to the nearest hundreth of a foot so it will never be absolutely perfect.

I had a neighbor build a fence once, he didn't even look for the corners, just had a fence company come and put it up. I was curious and started digging around in the lawn for the corner stakes, and finally found them. fortunately his fence was put in his yard, about 1' from the line in the back, about 3' from the line in the front. I never did find one of my back stakes, it should have been located right under another neighbors 30' pine tree. they had a fence around their yard (was there when I bought the house) that apparently cut across the corner of my lot. I never brought it up and it was that way when I sold the house.

When I was building by current house, my excavator took out one of my property corner stakes by mistake. The original surveyor reset it for $300 which I thought was reasonable. My excavator's rates were also reasonable, so I didn't even bring it up to him to pay for his mistake.

 

[Charlesaf3]

Tractor, sounds like you are pissed about how the neighborhood is changing. And may well have conveyed that to your neighbor.

But whatever, I'm hard pressed to see how the current situation is improving your life.

And the choice isn't "yes" or a mean NO. It could be "Oh, thank you for asking, but I don't have the money for that" or "thanks so much, but I really like the look of the current fence"

Simple facts - your approach didn't make your life any easier, did it?

 

[DocHeb]

No matter how much you feel you are in the right, you must read the thread: Help! I need legal advice re: easements. It covers the five-and-one-half year saga of a man with a problem easement. It will take a long time to read, but the outcome, as describe from most people's comments, is truly nauseating. Must reading for those who are thinking of fighting with neighbors.

 

[CurlyDave]

The big problem I see that Tractor888 has is that if he is sued, a common outcome of this type of suit is that the parties are ordered to share the cost of a fence on some court-determined property line.

In this instance the 3" just isn't worth fighting over, but if his neighbor has a lawyer and he doesn't he may very well be forced to share the cost of a new masonry fence, when a simple wooden one would do just fine.

 

[Western]

I agree with the posters that recommend you get a survey.
You will need the documentation if you do go to court, you will want to know exactly what "proof" you have, and you will know if other issues will arise on the other 3 sides of your property. If your survey comes out with you in the good, then you can show your nieghbor and maybe work out a compromise. If not it would be cheaper and easier to just move the fence.

Our newest nieghbor had a survey done prior to his purchase. I met the surveyers prior to meeting the nieghbor and they found the same thin my surveyers found, the seperating fence line was actually on my property about 3' on one end, all I have done is let the new nieghbor know but currently I have know intentions of moving a 1500' fence.

Funniest part. When I met my new nieghbor he was on the nieghbors place that ajoins us both in the back, putting in corner post about 10' past his fence! I ask him if he bought that extra 10' x 500', he said no! he was working off the surveyers stakes and the fence was all wrong. These were surveyer referance stakes that were scattered on all 4 of his property lines from his survey...