How accurate is a property line survey?

[tractor888]

Here's my story.... I got a wood fence between neighbor's vacant subdivision lot. The fence was there over 30 years ago and believe to be right on the property line. Recently, the new owner of the vacant lot is building a new house. He ask me if I would like to pay half the cost of building a new masonary wall. I said "no... my existing wooden fence is fine for me. A new masonary wall doesn't match with my house since I have the same fence on the other side. If you want to build a wall, build it on your side of the property and I have nothing to do with it."

A few months later, a surveyor put a few stakes and markings near the property line then he notify me that my fence is 3 inches over on his property and demand that I must tear down my fence or take me to court.

I tried to google for an answer but didn't find anything that I can understand. What is the tolerance of a property line survery? It can't be exactly on the sport right? Is it a +/- a few inches? a foot or +/- a certain percentage of tolerance like any type of scientific measurements?

I contacted an attorney I found off the phone book and he said he can challenge that and help me fight to keep the fence. However, it will be a couple of thousands of dollar to start for his fee ($350 per hour) and another thousand or so for a survey by a different surveyor who works for me. Right now, I really don't have the money for this crap... Is the anything I can DYI to challenge something that's off by 3 inches and protect my interest without paying thousands for a lawyer? Also, it not practical to tear down and move the fence either because it's a 30+ year old rustic looking cedar fence. It will fall part... Is this neighbor just want to be a pain in the rear and out to get me or is 3 inches such a big deal that the court will hear the case?

 

[CurlyDave]

I have had surveys be off by several feet, not inches and the surveyors seemed to think this was perfectly fine.

If the "true" line is really 3" from the fence line, depending on your state law, you may have an "adverse possession" claim against him for the 3" of land.

Also, it is very rare for courts to order the removal of any existing structure.

Ask a few more attorneys what to do. This can probably be settled by a letter from your mouthpiece to his pointing out the adverse possession issue, and that 3" isn't worth fighting over.

Unfortunately any landowner is a target for this kind of suit and there isn't much you can do about it without a lawyer.

Check to see if you have any insurance that covers it, sometimes title insurance and sometimes homeowners insurance will cover you.

I think he is just threatening you to get you to pay for half of a new fence.

 

[Wayne County Hose]

Given your situation, and lack of funds to fight it, my response to him would be something like this:

"Oh, did I say my fence? I must have been mistaken. Funny, it's 30 years old and my memory just isn't what it used to be. Well, if it's on your property, I guess it's your fence. When and if you remove it, I do hope that you won't be disturbing anything on my property."

But, given the way you spoke when he asked you about sharing the cost of a new fence, I don't blame him for his recent actions.

 

[coveredbridge]

I've been told that with the GPS tools that are now used in surveys, that property lines can be identified to within fractions of an inch. Before GPS, surveys could be off by several feet, as Curly Dave noted.

So, it certainly seems possible that a GPS based survey could accurately identify such an error in a property line that was last surveyed 30 yrs ago.

 

[xlr82v2]

I'd say "see you in Court". That fence is on MY ground, and it's been MY ground for the last 30 years... your survey guys are wrong.

No way in hades I'd let some new guy come in and start claiming my land as his own, I don't care what HIS surveyors say.

But, that's just me

 

[Charlesaf3]

I used to practice law in Mass, not Cali. so take this for what its worth.

You've got a good adverse possession claim. Which will cost you. I'd wait and see if he sues you - sure the court will hear it, but he may also decide its not worth the money. No downside to being sued in this situation really.

If you said exactly what you posted, I'm with WCH - that's a good way to get things started. I'd try and restore neighbor relations out of court.

Isn't a 30 year old rustic cedar fence about to tear itself down? That maybe the neighbors main objection - your "rustic" and his "eyesore" might be the same thing.

 

[Skyco]

The new owner should have seen the fence turn up on his survey before he closed. Maybe he didn't get one done, although it is usually a requirement for a loan, maybe he paid cash.

I put in about 1000 ft of chain link some years back. I asked neighbors on both sides if they would like to split the cost and put it on the line.
Nope.
2 weeks after I paid for and had installed the whole thing one of the neighbors was having a fence company put posts on MY side of the line to tie into and use MY fence.
I had put the fence 1 ft inside the line just to be sure the line wasn't crossed accidently and also suspecting the one jerk er.. excuse me, neighbor might try some funny business..
He was ordered to remove his posts on my property. Not wanting to be a complete jerk (like he was) I did allow him to span the gap from a post on HIS land to one on MY land with fence fabric, but I dang sure wasn't going to allow posts over the line.

 

[mjarrels]

I have a good friend who is in the survey business... sez the right property can be surveyed without getting out of the truck!

mark

 

[chadincolo]

I had put the fence 1 ft inside the line just to be sure the line wasn't crossed accidently and also suspecting the one jerk er.. excuse me, neighbor might try some funny business..

What I'm about to say depends on state laws, so check accordingly:

Here in Colorado, if your neighbor has use of that 1 foot of your land, mows it, uses it as his own, I hope you have him sign a yearly lease for it, or in a few years it will be his. It's called adverse possession, he uses it as his own with no objection from you for I believe 7 years, he has a legal right to that land. Again, state laws, I believe adverse possession is largely a western thing, where property descriptions are "From point x, Westerly 5 miles to point y, commencing Southerly 10 miles to point z..." The fences became the property lines, and the law said if you didn't want someone else's animals on your property, you must fence them out, so fences were usually up on property lines. Concepts and laws in the west are strange and foreign to some people I've talked to from the East Coast and the South...

 

[tractor888]

.........

If you said exactly what you posted, I'm with WCH - that's a good way to get things started. I'd try and restore neighbor relations out of court.

Isn't a 30 year old rustic cedar fence about to tear itself down? That maybe the neighbors main objection - your "rustic" and his "eyesore" might be the same thing.

I think that was pretty close to if not the exact words I said. I don't want a block wall and I want to keep my fence.... Did you guys read it as offesive or being rude to this new guy in town? This is over the phone and I never met the owner in person yet. Just curious, why should I paid to put in a new wall on one side and a still have my cedar wood fence on the other side? My house has wood siding. He's building a manson with stucco and concrete tile roof. Should I tear down my house and the rest of the fence to match with his???
Why can't he build his wall on his side of the property and leave my fence alone? If my fence is an "eyesore" then why did he choose to buy the property to build here? He never mention he was going to live here either. He could be just real estate developer wants build and sell for a profit. A lot of building has been going on here in the past few years. The fence was there before he bought the property and start building. What if the next guy comes along and say my house is an eyesore???

I don't know why I should or have a need to build any relation with someone like that? I really don't care about the 3" of land. I care more about the fence and keeping things the way it is. If I have extra money laying around, I rather get a new tractor

 

[dmccarty]

Tractor888,

What you said in the post COULD and I stress the word COULD be construed as rude. I did not take it that way though. Really depends on how you said what was said.

I think your solution of letting him build on his side of the line was correct and proper.

Just let him sue and go from there. Call his bluff.

Given the age of the fence my understanding of adverse possession SEEMS to be on your side even if the fence is on his property. But again it will depend on your state laws. If you know a realtor ask them for a lawyer recommendation. If you don't know a lawyer find a big Real Estate Agency in your area and ask who they would use. You could also ask a survey company.

Property line issues are frequently discussed on TBN. And they can be nasty so go careful. There is a long running thread on TBN about easements and property lines that did not end well for the TBN member. Progressive Farming has a law column that seems to be constantly answering question regarding easements and property lines. So go careful.

I have had "issues" over the years with land next to ours. The first owner was going to put a septic field on our land. I knew he did not know the location of the property line so I paid to have a survey done ASAP. This stopped the twit from putting in the system on our land. The surveyor put in a pipe marker that prevented the second owner from putting a fence on our land. The guy with the fence had just guessed on the location of the property line.

Good Luck!
Dan

 

[xlr82v2]

Tractor888,

I agree with you 100%.

I'm all for getting along with your neighbors and such, but if some new guy comes along and tells me that my land isn't my land anymore because his survey crew said that the line moved, well... that's the first step toward war... especially if he didn't have the balls enough to do it face to face.

I don't think how you responded to this newcomer was offensive or anything like that. He asked you a question, and you responded honestly. What could possibly be offensive about that? Myself, I'd be offended that he asked me to pay for his wall!! How could you possibly be "obligated" to finance his building project? How do you think he would respond if you asked him to pay half for rebuilding your wood fence instead of putting up his rock wall?

 

[bigshovel]

Being a fairly confrontational type personality I don't think you were rude. I put up with that sort of BS for a year at my old place and finally had enough of my one neighbor. I bought the home and had it surveyed as required by the bank and found a horse fence was well on my new property. I didn't see it as a big deal at the time, I can get along with anyone right? 6 months of living there a row of hardwood cherry trees on said neighbors property started to disease and began leaning quite alot toward my house. I politely walked over after one had fallen on the house "not alot of damage but an irritation" and asked, would you mind cutting the other trees down to avoid this type of situation in the future. His reply "yes I do they are my trees". Now I'm mad. 3 more months pass trees are still up. The snow begins to fall and I'm out running the plow, as it tuns out his fence on my property is impeding my backing up and turning around. 16 fence posts, 1 headlight later I can now turn around with ease and I have a new v-plow to boot. When he got home from work and inquired about the fence I informed him that fence was on my line and would have remained there had he cut down a few trees.
Spring came and the trees went and a knock at my door came, the neighbor asked if the fence could be reserected? I assured him it could but on his property. Bad neigbors suck. I have had them and unfortunately I have been one.

Brad

 

[tractor888]

Tractor888,

I agree with you 100%.

I'm all for getting along with your neighbors and such, but if some new guy comes along and tells me that my land isn't my land anymore because his survey crew said that the line moved, well... that's the first step toward war... especially if he didn't have the balls enough to do it face to face.

I don't think how you responded to this newcomer was offensive or anything like that. He asked you a question, and you responded honestly. What could possibly be offensive about that? Myself, I'd be offended that he asked me to pay for his wall!! How could you possibly be "obligated" to finance his building project? How do you think he would respond if you asked him to pay half for rebuilding your wood fence instead of putting up his rock wall?

Thanks for your support. I could be wrong but I didn't take it as a land dispute. What's 3 inches of land worth? That's less than the thickness of the wall he proposed. I saw it as someone trying to force me to conform with the new look of the neighborhood and stick the cost down my throat. His land is tiny with just one neighbor on each side and behind. I got at least 15 neighboring parcels. If every one of my neighbors thinks my existing fence look ugly and wants to replace with expensive fences, am I obligated to pay half the cost or they will use the same trick to screw me?

The bad news is when I call another attorney, he scared me to death. He said under the law, I really have no choice but to hire an attorney either him or another attorney to defend me. The only way to challenge his survey to pay for another survey. If they keep going back and forth on discrepancies, it will cost more money. If I do nothing, the neighbor will win the case. Not only I have to take down the fence, I have to pay his attorney's fee, damages and penalties. It's going to cost a lot more that half the cost of a new block wall. It just doesn't make any sense to me...

 

[3RRL]

What is the current situation with your neighbor? Are you still speaking? If so, I would politely inform him that he should reconsider suing you. You could mention to him about the "adverse possession" claim and you plan to use it should you have to go to court. If he's not aware of it, politely explain it to him. Flip it around on him.
You said the fence was there 30 years ago, have you owned the property for that long? I think it would be something you could explain with ease in court even if you didn't have a lawyer. Anyway, I think if you call his bluff with a polite explanation you will not get sued.

I've had the adjoining parcel change ownership since I've owned my rural property. It was surveyed for the new owners, plus that particular boundary was surveyed when I bought the land, so that's 2 times in 5 years ... by the same surveyor! Now, what's odd is that the starting corner point is different than where it was when surveyed for me. It is a marked cap in the street culdesac. Now there are 2 of them. Which one counts?

 

[Highbeam]

If he "wins" and finds that the fence is on his and then it is he that must take his fence down. If you win and find that the fence is on your land then you leave it. I can't see your risk here. He will need to enter onto your property to build his masonry wall so you have some leverage here.

Thank your stars that he only found three inches of error and not 30 feet.

Oh, and I have set property corners while working for a surveyor and our margin of error was half of a hundredth of a foot. Or about 1/16" inch when actually placing the corners. Despite that level of precision, no two surveyors will ever get it the same so three inches is within the realm of error that your hired surveyor could find.

GPS is much less accurate than instruments when land is described based on monumentation.

 

[RobJ]

Given your situation, and lack of funds to fight it, my response to him would be something like this:

"Oh, did I say my fence? I must have been mistaken. Funny, it's 30 years old and my memory just isn't what it used to be. Well, if it's on your property, I guess it's your fence. When and if you remove it, I do hope that you won't be disturbing anything on my property."

But, given the way you spoke when he asked you about sharing the cost of a new fence, I don't blame him for his recent actions.

This is priceless man, run with it!! Isn't there a word for this..oxymoron...YOUR fence is on MY property.

But for real, you can get another survey wthout involving a lawyer, for residential stuff I would guess less than $500, probably less. Then you can see where you stand. If "his" fence is on his property, then forgetabout it and enjoy your new rock fence. Not much you can do after that. I have to say I took your comments a little "sassy" but in reality, a "yes I'll pay half" was the only answer the guy was willing to hear. ANYTHING else and he would have been PO'd.

So get your survey, see where you are, then if you are in the right send him a letter and say bug off!

Hehe maybe if the fence IS on his property then send him a bill for it!!

I did have a buddy who went through but he was the other guy in this case...he went through the title company(useless), etc. I think he won the case but it was un enforceable and they worked something out. It was a while back, I'll have to call him.

 

[Charlesaf3]

I'm not saying you weren't within your rights, and might even be right - I don't know and don't have an opinion.

But as a lawyer, I think your money is better spent elsewhere than getting into lawsuits with your neighbors. Only people who win from that are lawyers.

And clearly you pissed the guy off. Maybe you had every right to, but as I see it its not making your life much easier.

I'm not saying you had to pay for the wall. Just there's a way of saying No that gets peoples back up, and a way of saying No that doesn't. And life is too short to feud with the neighbors unless you really have to.

Note, I'm not saying back down on important things. I'm just saying pick your fights.

 

[Skyco]

What I'm about to say depends on state laws, so check accordingly:

Here in Colorado, if your neighbor has use of that 1 foot of your land, mows it, uses it as his own, I hope you have him sign a yearly lease for it, or in a few years it will be his. It's called adverse possession, he uses it as his own with no objection from you for I believe 7 years, he has a legal right to that land.

Fortunately here in SC it is 20 years...so he has a ways to go

 

[bearhawk]

I'm just thinking here..

You take the fence down carefully, saving all. Cut the posts flush with the ground. Move off to a safe spot.

Let him build his new wall..

Now stand your old rustic panels against the new wall, with any luck you will just be able to fasten the posts to the new wall.

So from your side you still see your rustic fence, and he has his ugly masonry wall on his side.