Front-End Loader How do I make a 3PH Blower work on a FEL

   / How do I make a 3PH Blower work on a FEL #41  
I run a 7 foot snowblower on the 3pt hitch of a 27 hp rated tractor. That is a tad underpowered, but it works fine. Tractor has a good slow rear gear set.

Running forwards, you will have a lot of slow gears to pick from.

So it sounds like you want to run a 6.25 foot snow blower. And you are picking a 35 hp rated tractor to do so. And you want to do it with hydraulics.

So we get this distilled down to the basics:

25 hp should run the blower - some magic manufaturer's hp rating doesn't really matter, they are just considering their gearcase & shaft sizes..... You might be happier & can go faster with 40 hp running it, and it might actually use no more than 15 hp some of the time. But, the blower itself should run on 25 raw hp fairly well most of the time. Correct?

Your tractor, at 35 hp - assuming a pto rating - will put out 35 hp to the pto. With the hydaulics 80% efficient, leaves 28 hp. Driving your tractor around probably is taking 5 hp away tho to move the machine, so you will be left with 30 pto hp to devote to this - so 30 hp minus the 20% leaves 24 hp to run the blower. (If the 35hp is the engine rating, then you need to reconsider this - you don't have enough available hp to go hydaulic...)

That is doable, it will not be great, but it will work. Are you a hotrodder & need to blow fast & far & show off, or are you fine with plodding along when the conditions are deep and you end up in a creeper gear?

The concept will work, but you are in marginal area.


Foget about tying your tractor and a pto unit together using both pumps. That is _complicated_, what will it do to your loader arms, 3pt lift speed, etc? You'd have to match psi, open & closed center, get flow rates right - don't. It's technically possible, but good engineers will scatch their heads a long time to design a system that works on a skid steer, and need special parts. Just don't.

You are gonna need a hyd pto pump that is rated for 30-35 hp input/output, and a matching hyd motor that gives you the correct 540 revolutions at full hp. Basically that is what you will have available, so that is what you got, and that is what you might as well design for. You sure don't want less, and you don't have more available, so we can talk a long time about different options, but doesn't do any good because you have what you have.

You need a resivoir big enough to hold enough oil to cool it down as it cycles through. If you have a mile long driveway & make 2 laps of continous operation then you really really need to pay attention to resivoir size & oil temperature. High pressure means more cooling. We can't just pick 2 gallons, or 10 gallons - you need to look up the pump you are getting, and it's pressures & displacements, and if you are using it constantly or intermitently. The place you buy your components (Surplus Center, Prince?) could really help you with a ballpark idea if you can fill in these blanks for them.

This setup will be spendy, and it will be somewhat boarderline in operation. It'll work, but you might feel a tad underpowered in heavy conditions.

But really it is a slam dunk - it is what you are working with, so it is what you will end up doing. Pump displacement & pressure can be different, but you are starting at 30 hp & delivering 24 hp to the blower - that is what you have, and that is where you will need to be. That's really all the info you need to worry about.

Call the places up, tell then these details, and see what pump/motor combinations they have available. It's pretty simple.

Trying to tie in the existing pump, and all the fretting - your tractor has 35 hp. It won't change however you try to tap it in different ways.

Get the pto pump, that makes the whole setup easy to move to a different tractor or sell to the next person if it doesn't fit your needs.

Get your order in, screw the hoses on, and get going - I'm west of you & we are in the middle of a 24 hour blizzard - you need the thing. :)

Me, I much prefer the simplicity of a rear 3pt blower, so simple to hook on, all power is available, the weight is on the rear wheels where the best traction is, and I have the loader up front to deal with hard banks and cleanup. Really wouldn't want the complexity of what you are setting up. But that's just me.

--->Paul
 
   / How do I make a 3PH Blower work on a FEL #42  
The hydraulics loose a lot of effeciency running a motor. You live in Canada and I assume you have significant snow. I have a Toolcat with 27 gpm hydraulic pto on the back. It doesn't have the pto power of my JD 3720 with 35 pto hp. 15 gpm won't be enough unless your snow is light and fluffy. If you going to do it, probably need a pump mounted on your rear pto. The cost of your project will increase significantly with rear pto pump, reservior, hoses to the front ect.

Actually converting hydraulic flow to rotational energy is quite an efficient process. Do you think that all excavators, bulldozers, etc. would be powered that way if it wasn't?

To calculate power created by GPM flow there are some interesting calculators on Surplace Center's site Hydraulic

Once you have torque you can use RPM to convert it to HP

Andy
 
   / How do I make a 3PH Blower work on a FEL #43  
Well he has 15.5 gpm so if his system pressure is 2000 psi he has 21 hp, it is 2500 psi he has 27 hp and if its 3000 he has 32 hp drive the blower.

If he puts on a rear pto pump at 25 gpm and setsthe pressure at 2500 psi he has 43 hp assuming his pto hp is higher then this. If his pump motor and valve are rated for 3000 psi he could have 51 hp. It all depends on how far the snow needs to fly.
I firmly believe the rear pto pump would not cost any more then a driveshaft system and could have some other possible uses.

Figures courtesy of the surplus center.

Ken

Ken,

His tractor can not develop any more HP than what it is rated for. If that tractor is a 35 HP, then you are right about the HP available to run the snowblower. It will be something less than 35, probably around 32 if it is a gear drive. He doesn't have enough HP to run that blower wide open, but that is what he has, and it deserves a lager tractor.
 
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   / How do I make a 3PH Blower work on a FEL #44  
We can't give out our system design, but there are pictures on our website of a few of the Front Mount applications we have done. It might help some.
Michigan Iron & Equipment: Kioti Dealer

Hope it helps
 
   / How do I make a 3PH Blower work on a FEL #45  
As others have said Surplus Center has tech info and calculators to help you.

From this
Burden Sales Surplus Center - Tech Help

Torque is proportional to motor displacement... higher displacement... higher torque. For a given RPM, torque is directly related to horsepower. So, higher torque... higher horsepower. So, looking thru surplus center catalog... choose pump/motor on higher end of displacement.

You've got a 540 rpm PTO to drive the pump and you want a hydraulic motor to run at 540 RPM to drive the snowblower. This means that you want a pump and a motor that are the same displacement (as close as practical).

Here's a pump and motor combo that is in the right neighborhood for your tractor PTO HP (35).

PTO pump
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009120917592351&item=9-1047-1-C&catname=hydraulic

PTO spline shaft motor (allows you to use standard PTO drive shaft).
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009120917592351&item=9-7368-160&catname=hydraulic

Recommended reservoir size is 1 gal per 1 gpm. Running at around 21 gpm this 25 gal reservoir might be a good choice.
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009120917592351&item=9-7868&catname=hydraulic

Total cost so far for pump, motor and tank is $965. You'll need hoses and fittings and steel to fabricate brackets to hook it all up. You're probably looking at something around $1200 to $1500.
 
   / How do I make a 3PH Blower work on a FEL
  • Thread Starter
#46  
From this
Burden Sales Surplus Center - Tech Help
Here's a pump and motor combo that is in the right neighborhood for your tractor PTO HP (35).
PTO pump
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009120917592351&item=9-1047-1-C&catname=hydraulic
PTO spline shaft motor (allows you to use standard PTO drive shaft).
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009120917592351&item=9-7368-160&catname=hydraulic
Recommended reservoir size is 1 gal per 1 gpm. Running at around 21 gpm this 25 gal reservoir might be a good choice.
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009120917592351&item=9-7868&catname=hydraulic
Total cost so far for pump, motor and tank is $965. You'll need hoses and fittings and steel to fabricate brackets to hook it all up. You're probably looking at something around $1200 to $1500.

John in CT
Thank you so much for this research. Your post came in as I was looking around the web for probable units.

Thanks to the great advice from many others on this discussion I am almost committed to the PTO Pump, reservoir, Motor combination.

Because I am in Ontario, Canada I think the pricing is going to be a bit higher unless someone can point me to a CDN source for those items that John has identified. The last time I tried to order anything from the USA the paperwork was a nightmare - granted it was some time ago - so I would rather go someplace where I can put my hands on the stuff and bring it home.

I will be trying Princess Auto in the next week or so.

My wife says $1500 is a small price to pay to minimize stress on my neck, shoulders and back - gotta love that kind of support.

Cheers all - and thanks so much for the wealth of ideas and suppoort.

Bob
 
   / How do I make a 3PH Blower work on a FEL #47  
Bob
If a US source is the best place to purchase your stuff and you want help getting it to Canada, let me know, I live on the border and can have things sent to Mn then bring them into Ontario without getting brokers involved. Just shipping charges. If princess get things on sale they have good prices but who knows when it willall be onsale.
Talk to the vendors and see what their tech people say. They are the pros, but I think your getting a handle on the theory. So they can point you in the right direction. Surplus center is toll free, can't beat that.

Full power from your pto is simpler in the long run, but if you seen how little was involved in that hi flow kit you would be tempted. However the system was engineered with that addition in mind, so attempting it on a tractor not designed for it may be pushing ones luck.
Ken
 
   / How do I make a 3PH Blower work on a FEL #48  
If you have a duplicate post, just go to edit and delete the post.
 
   / How do I make a 3PH Blower work on a FEL #49  
Ken,

His tractor can not develop any more HP than what it is rated for. If that tractor is a 35 HP, then you are right about the HP available to run the snowblower. It will be something less than 35, probably around 32 if it is a gear drive. He doesn't have enough HP to run that blower wide open, but that is what he has, and it deserves a lager tractor.

JJ, Agreed,
When I posted that I did'nt know his engine hp, I was just giving examples of pump flows and pressure settings that would develope certain horse powers.
Now, if he choses a pump and motor that is say 20% beyond what his motor can produce for power at 3000psi, he can compinsate by simply lowering his relief pressure setting 20%.
Then perhaps in the future if the system ends up on a larger machine the pressure could be bumped back up to what the blower would like to have for power running it. Where ifits maxed out pressure wise now, that option is not available.
Ken
 
   / How do I make a 3PH Blower work on a FEL
  • Thread Starter
#50  

Once again a little information (for me) produces further questions.

I am actively searching for the components recommended by John in CT and have what might be a safety question regarding the particular motor he linked to above.

Would it be advisable to put an Overrunning Coupler (ORC) on this shaft. I am thinking that there is still momentum in the snowblower when I shut off the PTO. Also, if I used a similar set up for a front mount bush hog (yes, I understand the safety issues with possible flying debris) to get in closer to some high brush near fence rows, there is also quite a bit of momentum in the bush hog blade.

Does the hydraulic fluid absorb some of this momentum when the PTO is shut off or would an ORC be a safer and fairly inexpensive way to go.

Thanks again to all you have contributed on this discussion.

Bob
 
 

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