Front-End Loader How do I make a 3PH Blower work on a FEL

[dourobob]

Hi

I had posted this in Customization but now believe it should have been here under attachments. Lots of great ideas here for my project.

I have read a few threads that relate to this situation but I now need more specific details on the hydraulic part.

I have a 75" Meteor Snowblower that I have been using on my 3 PH. I believe it should be possible to run this blower attached to the FEL. Understand I need a hydraulic motor that turns at 540 RPM to run the blower and I believe I would supply hydraulic power one of two ways:
1 - from the tractor which has a 15.5 GPM pump (not sure if this is enough power)
2 - from a separate PTO driven Hydraulic Pump using a 20 - 25 gal hydraulic reservoir (this could be on a 3PH and provide balance for the front blower)

I am confident my friend the welder can fabricate the quick hitch but I need some advice on Hydraulic component sizing and sourcing.

Anyone done this and able to provide lessons learned.
Any questions that I need to ask but haven't ?
Appreciate any comments.

Bob

 

[ElDorado]

Michigan Iron has this figured out. If you go to his website he has a picture. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words. From others have said he also sounds like a reasonable guy, maybe a phone call would help.

Sounds like a good idea, turning around really doesn't thrill me. Good like, I keep watching your progress.

Matt

 

[radman1]

The hydraulics loose a lot of effeciency running a motor. You live in Canada and I assume you have significant snow. I have a Toolcat with 27 gpm hydraulic pto on the back. It doesn't have the pto power of my JD 3720 with 35 pto hp. 15 gpm won't be enough unless your snow is light and fluffy. If you going to do it, probably need a pump mounted on your rear pto. The cost of your project will increase significantly with rear pto pump, reservior, hoses to the front ect.

 

[dourobob]

Thanks for the ideas
I'll contact the Michigan Iron folks a see if they can give me some specs for Hydro pump and motor requirement on the Meteor 75.

As I already own that blower so I was hoping to adapt it for under $1000 - optimistic? maybe. Easier on my neck - without a doubt.

Bob

 

[skidsteer.ca]

The hydraulics loose a lot of efficiency running a motor. QUOTE]

I don't agree fully with this. Is 15 gpm going to wow you with its excessive power, likely not. But just as important as the flow is what maximum (relief) pressure can you run it at safely. Because 15 gpm at 3000 psi has 50% more hp then 15 gpm at 2000 psi.
Now obviously every hose, pump , motor and valve has to be rated at least as much as the pressure your relief valve is set at.

Also important in a motor circuit is flow restriction, because every lb of back pressure in the return line is a lb of wasted force consuming power on the pressure side. So big hoses and as few 90 degree fittings as possible.

You need to find your relief pressure and calculate your hp using gpm and max psi. Then yes there are going to be losses. But how much depends on how you design the system. I do think you would be happier with a larger pump.
At the same time we have skidsteers running 73" blowers on 2500 psi with 13 gpm. However they have the advantage of hydrostatic drive, and if conditions begin to overwhelm the hp of the blower setup, the operator can vary easily slow down. So it really depends on a lot of factors, how the system is designed, and what your expectations are.

I do believe 35 pto hp would provide a noticeable increase over 27 pto hp weather it is driven hydraulically or otherwise.

Also that we will see more hydraulic blowers on tractors. These pto pumps or similar wet kits would also be excellent for splitting wood or running a rough cut mower without smashing the gear box out of it.
Ken

 

[JoelD]

This is a good question, my gut instinct and someone like Waynehose would be better suited to answer, is that your tractor's pump would not have the GPM to run a motor to spin a blower, I'm thinking you need something like skidsteer flow rate.

We'll here is what some retailers of skid steer blowers list:

78" Standard Flow Snow Blower, 14-21 GPM Range:

Flow Rates - 14-21 GPM

Operating Range 1800 psi - 3000 psi

Two stage hydraulic blower throws snow up to 45'

Electrically Controlled poly-lined chute and deflector

High-volume 25" shroud opening provides excellent visibility

Replaceable wear-resistant Pacal steel tapered wear edge

Skid shoes are adjustable

Attaches quickly to most skid-steer loader brands

Weight - 703lbs.

Therefore I'm thinking the prior posters have it pretty much nailed. Your tractor will probably barely run it. You'd have to run a PTO pump (those things are not cheap) and then hook up a motor to the blower housing.

Would be nice if you could run some sort of driveshaft from the front of the motor and then belt drive from there like yard tractors.

Mechanical maybe cheaper, but not sure if easier or not.

Joel

 

[skidsteer.ca]

Well he has 15.5 gpm so if his system pressure is 2000 psi he has 21 hp, it is 2500 psi he has 27 hp and if its 3000 he has 32 hp drive the blower.

If he puts on a rear pto pump at 25 gpm and setsthe pressure at 2500 psi he has 43 hp assuming his pto hp is higher then this. If his pump motor and valve are rated for 3000 psi he could have 51 hp. It all depends on how far the snow needs to fly.
I firmly believe the rear pto pump would not cost any more then a driveshaft system and could have some other possible uses.

Figures courtesy of the surplus center.

Ken

 

[dourobob]

This is great and I feel I am narrowing in on a solution.
The tractor I am hoping to buy is a Kioti DK35SE HST. Not sure yet what the PSI of the pump is - will chat with the dealer on Monday - but I think it might make sense to start with a connection from auxillary Hydraulics and see how that works. If I deed more juice then I could add a PTO pump - I would try to make sure the hydraulic lines would work with either set up.

Very exciting.
Not ready for snow quite yet but hope I will be before I need to be.

Bob

 

[pat32rf]

I am wondering if your PTO is driven off the hydraulic circuit that drives your HST tranny or if there is a staight thru PTO driveshaft.
If its driven off the HST, then you might be able to get a "power beyond" kit similar to the JD units and use it for the blower, because the PTO pump won't generate any more power than whatever sources the PTO power.
Are you near P'boro or am I thinking of another town?

 

[radman1]

The hydraulics loose a lot of efficiency running a motor. QUOTE]

I don't agree fully with this. Is 15 gpm going to wow you with its excessive power, likely not. But just as important as the flow is what maximum (relief) pressure can you run it at safely. Because 15 gpm at 3000 psi has 50% more hp then 15 gpm at 2000 psi.
Now obviously every hose, pump , motor and valve has to be rated at least as much as the pressure your relief valve is set at.

Also important in a motor circuit is flow restriction, because every lb of back pressure in the return line is a lb of wasted force consuming power on the pressure side. So big hoses and as few 90 degree fittings as possible.

You need to find your relief pressure and calculate your hp using gpm and max psi. Then yes there are going to be losses. But how much depends on how you design the system. I do think you would be happier with a larger pump.
At the same time we have skidsteers running 73" blowers on 2500 psi with 13 gpm. However they have the advantage of hydrostatic drive, and if conditions begin to overwhelm the hp of the blower setup, the operator can vary easily slow down. So it really depends on a lot of factors, how the system is designed, and what your expectations are.

I do believe 35 pto hp would provide a noticeable increase over 27 pto hp weather it is driven hydraulically or otherwise.

Also that we will see more hydraulic blowers on tractors. These pto pumps or similar wet kits would also be excellent for splitting wood or running a rough cut mower without smashing the gear box out of it.
Ken

I have run hydraulic rotary brush mowers, finish mowers, trenchers, PHDs, brush cutters, tillers etc on large frame skid steers and on my TC. Most of the hydraulic flows vary from 20-28 gpm at 3000-3300 psi. Much higher outputs than most CUTS can do and higher than most all utility tractors. (My 125 hp tractor puts out 29 gpm and my large 245hp ag tractor 50 gpm.) Most tractors will have psi closer to 2500-2700. Nearly every attachment of similar size will perform better on a pto driven tractor which has much lower engine hp. A pto driven diesel engine will develop more torque and hp as the rpm of the engine slows down from recommended pto speed. A hydraulic motor has max hp at max flow. Any drop in flow as the attachments gets more work/resistance, immediately results in a drop in hydraulic motor pto. This is why a direct drive/pto CUT with 30 pto will out perform the some hydraulic motor with same pto hp. It would take flow rates in the 40-50 gpm to make me happy with the power characteristics of skid steer attachments to equal my CUTs pto.

 

[IslandTractor]

This is great and I feel I am narrowing in on a solution.
The tractor I am hoping to buy is a Kioti DK35SE HST. Not sure yet what the PSI of the pump is - will chat with the dealer on Monday - but I think it might make sense to start with a connection from auxillary Hydraulics and see how that works. If I deed more juice then I could add a PTO pump - I would try to make sure the hydraulic lines would work with either set up.

Very exciting.
Not ready for snow quite yet but hope I will be before I need to be.

Bob

I think the Kioti PSI is in the 2500 range. You might want to consider going to the DK40se with the KL401 loader though. Cost to upgrade is a couple of thousand last time I checked. You go from mid 15s to 16.8 on hydraulic pump capacity, from 27 to 32.5 on PTO and get a much bigger loader. I'm sure the DK35 can handle it but it is nice to have reserve power when running something like a snowblower.

 

[skidsteer.ca]

Nearly every attachment of similar size will perform better on a pto driven tractor which has much lower engine hp. A pto driven diesel engine will develop more torque and hp as the rpm of the engine slows down from recommended pto speed. A hydraulic motor has max hp at max flow. Any drop in flow as the attachments gets more work/resistance, immediately results in a drop in hydraulic motor pto. This is why a direct drive/pto CUT with 30 pto will out perform the some hydraulic motor with same pto hp. It would take flow rates in the 40-50 gpm to make me happy with the power characteristics of skid steer attachments to equal my CUTs pto.

I too own and operate several hydraulic driven attachments including a rotary cutter, trencher, tiller, soil conditioner, concrete mixer and stump grinder, powered by medium frame skidsteers with 15 to 17 gpm and a high flow on the 15 that bumps it to 24.
Pressures range from 2600 to 3300. Typically a bit more pressure then most tractors.
There is no doubt a shaft driven pto will transfer all of the engine power. But thats not a option for a blower on a fel. So if the goal is to blow snow going forward with an attachment on his fel then there are some design limitations he has to live with. Reduced hp is going to be one of them. How much it gets reduced will depend on the previous specs mentioned and how he designs his system.
Is this going to be enough hp for him?? I don't know,the only way to answer that is for him to test a hydraulic blower to see if the loss in speed is worth not having a kink in your neck.
Until you use a hydraulic blower, it is like try to explain to someone that has never driven a car the difference between chevette and a corvette in terms of hp numbers. They are going to have a hard time knowing how much they will be satisfied with.

Personally I'd could live with the 15 gpm pump if it let me work in forward. Especially if he has hst, if it begines to stall you can slow down a bit without wearing the clutch. I love hydraulic drives, they are very user friendly and easy on parts. Is it going to out pace a pto blower, hard to say, but some of the lost is blower performance will be made up by tractor performance resulting from driving forward.
Ken

 

[racingmodracer]

I just posted a thread on instlling a motor on a 8'snowblower and have been thinking of installing a pump with a clutch on it on my engine to run the snowblower. not sure but think I need to have around 30gpm to run it. not sure if my engine will take the horsepower loss or not but figured i could slow down or run the truck in low range and bring the engine rpms up some. just a thought on a belt driven pump. love to hear what others think about this.

 

[Tritonman]

I know some snowblowers just have a motor mounted directly to them, just another idea-so that it is all a self contained system.

 

[IslandTractor]

I know some snowblowers just have a motor mounted directly to them, just another idea-so that it is all a self contained system.

Yeah, the one I walk behind is set up like that. I couldn't get the PTO to run at 540RPM and my hydraulic hose, while penlty powerful, is lacking a return line.

 

[Tritonman]

I think you need a gear reduction set up to get the speed down to 540.

 

[dourobob]

. . . Kioti PSI is in the 2500 range. You might want to consider going to the DK40se with the KL401 loader though. . . . You go from mid 15s to 16.8 on hydraulic pump capacity, from 27 to 32.5 on PTO and get a much bigger loader.

Good advice!!
Last Friday I pulled the trigger on a new DK 45 SE HST. It is probably more tractor than I need for most things but I am hoping I can mount my snowblower on the FEL and run it off a Hydraulic motor powered by the tractor's hydro system.

Many of the comments (particularly fron SkidSteer.ca) seem to indicate I will be on the edge as far as capacity and satisfaction but it is likely doable. Because the tractor is HST driven and I am not removing snow commercially so I have very little time pressure, it seems that this is worth a shot.

If it works, great!
If it doesn't do the job well enough, I will then look at adding a PTO pump and a 20-25 Gallon reservoir. I will probably look for a way to mount the reservoir on the frame of my box blade so it will act a rear ballast as well as giving me a means to drag snow away from door openings etc.

New machine expected to arrive this Friday. The fun never stops!

Bob

 

[Stonehaller]

Keep in mind that the 16.8 GPM hydraulic flow on the DK45 is total hydraulic flow. Some of that is the power steering power steering pump so you may only have 10 GPM of hydraulic flow. The spec's on the Kioti web site do not break down the flows, but it does state a tandem gear pump so I suspect that 16.8 is total for both pumps.

 

[lungdoc]

That Kioti looks like a nice tractor! I have difficulty thinking that you'd be getting enough hydraulic flow for a blower big enough to make sense on that tractor. Deere makes its front hydraulic blower with a power pack driven by PTO, yet the 4x20 series have slightly more total hydraulic flow then the Kioti. The power pack is for a 76" unit; has a tank, 18-23 GPM flow and a 15 gallon reservoir, pressure relief on fan is at 3000PSI. I can't imagine they'd bother if that wasn't necessary. Also note that the Kioti lists total hydraulic flow as 16.8, the Deere 4320 fir example lists 17.1 but says 5.1 used for steering and 12 available for implements; I'd presume same would be true for Kioti.

 

[skidsteer.ca]

If it works, great!
If it doesn't do the job well enough, I will then look at adding a PTO pump and a 20-25 Gallon reservoir. I will probably look for a way to mount the reservoir on the frame of my box blade so it will act a rear ballast as well as giving me a means to drag snow away from door openings etc.

New machine expected to arrive this Friday. The fun never stops!

Bob

Bob
The only issue with going to a large flow pump later is that your blower speed will increase if you feed it more oil. Unless you buy another hyd motor for the blower with a larger displacement volume. Kinda a catch 22, unless you don't mind running the blower at a higher rpm.

I wonder if there is any place you can add a smaller pump to the tractor and combine the flow of this to the pump you have. Thats how the high flow skidsteers are set up. A simple valve allows selection of one pump (standard flow) or both pumps (high flow)

I put the high flow kit on my NH Ls160 and it uses a a small pump belt driven off the crank which adds 9 gpm to the system. The newer ones use a single tandem pump instead, but same end result.
Ken