Grading How does my three point float work GC1705?

[downsizingnow48]

What does the owner's manual say?

 

[JWR]

As I asked, can't you push the lever all the way down into detent, for float? That is how most other tractors with a quarter-incher work.

By the way I had a quarter-incher on my previous Kubota B and never had a complaint about it at all. Yes, position control is nice, but I had no complaints about the quarter-incher at all.

I am puzzled by this entire thread. I have owned a JD4700, 2 Kubota B2150's and worked on 3 BX2200 - BX2300 series. Plus the large MF2660. ALL have 3pt hitch vertical control that is what most of you are calling "float." I have never seen a tractor that wasn't "float." That means the position control lever (which is there on every tractor I've seen) sets a level or position below which it will not let the lift arms go. Any implement is held up to that level. Downward pressure does not exist and comes only from the weight of the implement. Now for more complexity, the only provision for terrain following that I know about is called "draft control" as opposed to "position control." The smaller tractors tend not to have draft control in part because it is primarily for plowing & tilling operations and also because it adds cost. I assume/wager that NONE of the MF 1700 series or similar models from any competitor have draft control. With draft control you establish the level to which a plow runs using a second lever and from that point on, the draft control maintains nearly constant depth of the plow in the ground. That's it -- position control and draft control. Anything else is strange, very strange. Thank goodness I've never been faced with a detent on a 3pt lift control. Anyone want to educate me on other options ?

 

[atsah]

I am puzzled by this entire thread. I have owned a JD4700, 2 Kubota B2150's and worked on 3 BX2200 - BX2300 series. Plus the large MF2660. ALL have 3pt hitch vertical control that is what most of you are calling "float." I have never seen a tractor that wasn't "float." That means the position control lever (which is there on every tractor I've seen) sets a level or position below which it will not let the lift arms go. Any implement is held up to that level. Downward pressure does not exist and comes only from the weight of the implement. Now for more complexity, the only provision for terrain following that I know about is called "draft control" as opposed to "position control." The smaller tractors tend not to have draft control in part because it is primarily for plowing & tilling operations and also because it adds cost. I assume/wager that NONE of the MF 1700 series or similar models from any competitor have draft control. With draft control you establish the level to which a plow runs using a second lever and from that point on, the draft control maintains nearly constant depth of the plow in the ground. That's it -- position control and draft control. Anything else is strange, very strange. Thank goodness I've never been faced with a detent on a 3pt lift control. Anyone want to educate me on other options ?

Having the draft is what I'm use to that is why I was confused with the operation of these little tractors.. The manual is VERY vague and says pretty much nothing about it other than push it down and pull it up.. You pretty much cleared it up for me. I do like having draft for different things..

 

[atsah]

I can't tell you . . I push with my loader and pull with mu 3pt. Other than a rear snowblower I didn't know 3pt hitches were designed for pushing regardless of the tractor size. A hydraulic toplink would have some impact but unless you're adding weight weight weight to a back blade . . Pushing is forcing it upward and a 3pt. Depends on gravity of the implement while a loader has downward force.

You're trying to push snow with a 3pt. Instead of pulling snow and you have little weight on a blade . . I didn't know it could be done. A rear snowblower on the other hand is heavy and is clearing anow out not plowing it up . . much different pushing situation.

What does your dealer say?

Pushing snow with a back blade works just fine if you have enough weight on the blade.

 

[s219]

I am puzzled by this entire thread. I have owned a JD4700, 2 Kubota B2150's and worked on 3 BX2200 - BX2300 series. Plus the large MF2660. ALL have 3pt hitch vertical control that is what most of you are calling "float." I have never seen a tractor that wasn't "float." That means the position control lever (which is there on every tractor I've seen) sets a level or position below which it will not let the lift arms go. Any implement is held up to that level. Downward pressure does not exist and comes only from the weight of the implement.

You're describing position control, which this particular tractor does not have. It has a 1/4 incher valve, which means you have no set positions at all, just the ability to move the 3-pt up and down between the lower and upper limits. There is no feedback mechanism to maintain a fixed/repeatable level like you have with position control.

Now for more complexity, the only provision for terrain following that I know about is called "draft control" as opposed to "position control." The smaller tractors tend not to have draft control in part because it is primarily for plowing & tilling operations and also because it adds cost. I assume/wager that NONE of the MF 1700 series or similar models from any competitor have draft control. With draft control you establish the level to which a plow runs using a second lever and from that point on, the draft control maintains nearly constant depth of the plow in the ground. That's it -- position control and draft control. Anything else is strange, very strange. Thank goodness I've never been faced with a detent on a 3pt lift control. Anyone want to educate me on other options ?

Draft control is not the issue here, and is just further confusing things. Draft control has nothing to do with the basic float functionality.

Honestly, this is either a case of the OP not being able to find/understand float, or the GC is just a pile of crap that can't float the 3-pt. I don't believe it's the latter though. I've never run a tractor that couldn't float the 3-pt, whether it was position control or 1/4 incher.

 

[atsah]

You're describing position control, which this particular tractor does not have. It has a 1/4 incher valve, which means you have no set positions at all, just the ability to move the 3-pt up and down between the lower and upper limits. There is no feedback mechanism to maintain a fixed/repeatable level like you have with position control.



Draft control is not the issue here, and is just further confusing things. Draft control has nothing to do with the basic float functionality.

Honestly, this is either a case of the OP not being able to find/understand float, or the GC is just a pile of crap that can't float the 3-pt. I don't believe it's the latter though. I've never run a tractor that couldn't float the 3-pt, whether it was position control or 1/4 incher.

I understand float and I know it has it as any tractor I have owned has.. The way I see it is when I'm using the 3pt and need to keep the implement on the ground regardless of ground contour I will need to hold the handle down..

 

[AxleHub]

I understand float and I know it has it as any tractor I have owned has.. The way I see it is when I'm using the 3pt and need to keep the implement on the ground regardless of ground contour I will need to hold the handle down..

I'm struggling to understand why a standard process kees getting twisted around. The handle does nothing but set the height . . . Holding the handle down steadily does nothing for you. Once you set it at a height . . Thats it. But you need weight on the blade because weight is what all tractors depend on from 3 pt attachments . . Gravity.

Whether you have position control or "draft" or 1/4 inching or you keep "holding the handle down" . . . a blade operates with gravity keeping it "down". Small or large tractors operate the same . . But a bigger blade has more weight on it.

 

[atsah]

The handle does nothing but set the height . . . Holding the handle down steadily does nothing for you. Once you set it at a height . . Thats it.

If you hold the handle down while you are moving the tractor/implement over uneven terrain the hitch will move up and down to keep the implement in contact with the ground. If you drop the implement on flat ground and leave it, when the tractor drops in level the implement comes off the ground and becomes worthless.. I understand the weight thing..

 

[AxleHub]

If you hold the handle down while you are moving the tractor/implement over uneven terrain the hitch will move up and down to keep the implement in contact with the ground. If you drop the implement on flat ground and leave it, when the tractor drops in level the implement comes off the ground and becomes worthless.. I understand the weight thing..

Then why wouldn't you set it at the depressed level and then it will float up and down to the other levels? Why would you need to keep holding it down ?

 

[atsah]

Then why wouldn't you set it at the depressed level and then it will float up and down to the other levels? Why would you need to keep holding it down ?

Yup, that would also work.

 

[s219]

Then why wouldn't you set it at the depressed level and then it will float up and down to the other levels? Why would you need to keep holding it down ?

That may not work depending on how the hydraulics are setup. You can test this when there's nothing on the lift arms. With the lever centered, go lift the arms up and see if the 3-pt stays at that raised position or goes back down to where it was. Without a true float position and/or position control, the hitch will most likely not drop back down.

That may be why he said he had to hold the lever down before -- that would have created a float. As I understand the problem description, when the front of the tractor hit a bump, the blade was being pressed up at the rear, and not returning back down.

Remember, with no downforce and no position control, these basic 3-pt hitches are pretty limited in what they can do.

 

[atsah]

That may not work depending on how the hydraulics are setup. You can test this when there's nothing on the lift arms. With the lever centered, go lift the arms up and see if the 3-pt stays at that raised position or goes back down to where it was. Without a true float position and/or position control, the hitch will most likely not drop back down.

That may be why he said he had to hold the lever down before -- that would have created a float. As I understand the problem description, when the front of the tractor hit a bump, the blade was being pressed up at the rear, and not returning back down.

Remember, with no downforce and no position control, these basic 3-pt hitches are pretty limited in what they can do.

Thanks for all the input guys.. I think I know what I need to do while using my back blade.. I messed with it yesterday, if I just drop the blade in a low spot, the hitch will go up and down to that point..

 

[jeepcj7]

ATSAH - you are absolutely correct in your observation. There is no true float position on the GC 3 point. Put if you do as you suggest you will get free floating up an down movement. To get float would require upgrading to a model 1526 tractor.

 

[atsah]

ATSAH - you are absolutely correct in your observation. There is no true float position on the GC 3 point. Put if you do as you suggest you will get free floating up an down movement. To get float would require upgrading to a model 1526 tractor.

Ya it takes a little getting use to but it does work..

 

[JWR]

"It has a 1/4 incher valve, which means you have no set positions at all, just the ability to move the 3-pt up and down between the lower and upper limits. There is no feedback mechanism to maintain a fixed/repeatable level like you have with position control."

S219 -- Educate me -- I never heard of a 1/4 incher. If one can move the implement up or down by 1/4" increments but no "position control" then it is a float-only system ? There is no downward force on the 3pt lift arms I'm sure. Then how does one ever hold an implement up ?

Meanwhile found an old 2011 post (which by the way you were in on!) that offers a YouTube explanatory video. This is a very good tutorial at
YouTube - ‪kubota B7610 Quarter Inch Valve versus Position Control‬‏

My impression is that the quarter incher was a handy thing for some users who did a lot of landscape work where a "position tweaker" was handy compared to a "position control" that the whole world understands. Now that I see what it was, I say it belongs the same place as 8 track tapes and Betamax VCRs.

 

[AxleHub]

I'm going to use an example as numerous posters seem to have a misunderstanding in my opinion of terms relating to:

float vs 3ph control

1st a statement . . . its my understanding that all modern 3 point hitches oerate with float . . .a 3 ph in any form only determines the bottom setting by control valve. (Raising or lowering the 3ph is determining the BOTTOM setting).

The setting of the bottom setting is done by your 3ph control valve and you can have 1 of 3 types:

Choice 1. Old style was up and down . . think of it as a manual seat adjuster on a car

Choice 2. 1/4 inching allows the setting of 3ph bottom postion like #1 but also fine 3 point adjustment. Think of it like having electric seat adjustment in a car.



Choice 3. Position control allows the setting of 3ph bottom postion like #1 but also a repeatable 3 point adjustment. Think of it like having MEMORY electric seat adjustment in a car.


All 3 of these set the bottom that grabity can force the 3ph to drop to. Unlike a front end loader . . a 3ph has no downward power of its own unless you have a hydraulic controlled top link which is still heavily dependent on gravity. The concept of float is not related to the 3ph control valve. The control valve sets the bottom the implement can travel . . But it does not force or push that implement to that bottom . . Thats what gravity does (and land contour).

 

[Leejohn]

The 1/4" 3pt is only a SA hyd control valve so that you can move the 3pt real slow up and down.

 

[JWR]

The 1/4" 3pt is only a SA hyd control valve so that you can move the 3pt real slow up and down.

Surge anticipation ?

 

[TripleR]

Been lots of discussions on this over the years, Chuck passed away some time ago, this may be worth reading, it took me a while to figure out and still hate it.: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...212121-quarter-inching.html?highlight=quarter

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...-quarter-inching-valve.html?highlight=quarter

 

[s219]

The simplest way I can describe it is to think of a standard double-acting, spring-return-to-center hydraulic valve hooked up to a hydraulic cylinder. Hold the valve one way and the cylinder extends, hold it the other way and it retracts. If you were to "bump" the valve in either direction and let it return to center, the cylinder would briefly move in or out. If somebody specially calibrated the return spring for a certain rate, then they could roughly control the increment by which the cylinder moves its way in or out when you bump the lever.

That's exactly how the quarter-incher works -- it's a standard double-acting, spring-return-to-center hydraulic valve, but the springs have been chosen so that each bump of the lever between the "inching" stops moves the 3-pt hitch about 1/4 of an inch. If you hold the lever all the way in either direction it behaves normally and the hitch keeps moving. It's only when bumping the lever that you get the 1/4 inch increments.

The downside to the quarter-incher is that there is no correlation between lever and vertical position of the 3-pt hitch. You can move the 3-pt up or down, but you have to eyeball the height yourself. This is in contrast to position control, where you basically set the height directly using the scale on the lever, and it's repeatable every time. The other big difference is that the quarter-incher can drift down over time, and you'll periodically need to raise it manually. Position control has a feedback loop and will automatically adjust to maintain vertical position. If you have position control, you may have occasionally seen the hitch bump up as the feedback loop does its thing.

All 3-pts will float under the influence of gravity, at least until the lift arms reach their lower limit. To get float with position control, just push the lever to the lowest setting. To get it with a Kubota quarter-incher valve, you push the lever all the way down, past the lower stop and go into detent (the lever will stay there). With the Massey discussed here, it doesn't seem to have a true float position, so you either need to hold the lever down, or find a low spot and drop your implement all the way down there, so that you've found the lower limit of the 3-pt arms.