How does one decide right vs wrong?

wroughtn_harv · Sep 15, 2002

Morning Kelvin,

Well, I 'd have to say, short n' sweet, that anything out of context with the Word of God 

You do understand that's the reason we have so many versions of christianity?

Someday when your hands are busy and your mind can take a walk (please not while you're flying over norte tejas for gawd's sake) think about the Holy Word from the perspective of being a parent.

Think about how you're raising your children versus the way the Hebrew God handled His.

While you're on this court playing hardball with yourself compare the philosophy of parenting in the Bible versus the philosophy we've came to in modernity.

Let me know which one you think is better. And if you can use examples as to why.

I honestly think this whole discussion would be better conducted while working side by side on something - pulling in the same yoke, so to speak. It loses something online - no relationship.

That's interesting. I personally find the screen the perfect medium for discussion.

It eliminates the body language completely from the discussion. This is good.

I happen to be one of these people who use body language to intimidate. And in discussions more than once I've found myself rising you might say to the occasion when it wasn't going my way verbally. Character flaw, have few, but the ones I have are dueseys./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

I also like the fact that it's here in black and white or blue and white or red and white, all according to the individual's settings. It's here where we can go back and see it right there and not through the filter of our emotions. Where I get the impression you were arguing with me when in fact you were agreeing with me but using all the wrong words./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Seriously I do have a problem with one on one discussions sometimes. I'll be the first to admit to being a bully. When I can't be a physical bully I will resort to being a verbal one. It's not something I'm proud of and it is something I do try to work on.

But there is the fact that it's there, the bulliness. That makes it hard for others to engage me. I wish it wasn't so and maybe someday I will have grown enough as a person for it to not be an issue.

knucklehead · Sep 15, 2002

Hey - I ain't Kelvin! But I'll take that as a compliment.

Well, Harv, I happen to be a lot like you, and I've noticed that bull in your writing, believe it or not.

Oh, man! I didn't mean it that way! But I need to leave that in there - /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

I meant the "in your face" style. I have other friends like you & me, and we get along just fine - one of the reasons, in fact, I like the yoke example. Hard work satifies the physical and softens us a little. I find when I haven't been worked for a while (I have a desk job), I get a little.....bullish. I spent a half day Friday cutting firewood out of trees felled by someone else - on top of each other, hung, and trapping lots of little 2" whips that want to take your head off when released. My lovely mate & I later had a great conversation and watched a movie while on a little honey moon Fri-Sat (kids at grandparents). I need to push the heart rate up to the redline for a while. I think you alluded to the same thing a while back on another post.

Anyway, it seems you might be making reference to some of the Old Testament examples of tough stuff God did with his "children". I gotta go make pancakes for birthday girl - although I guess I'd take a quick whack at it and mention that God's ways are extreme examples of the chastisment and correction he expects us to perform with our kids - plus it is also an example of the punishment for sin. Of course we can't make the earth open up and swallow them (good thing, huh?) when they disobey, and that example itself was a result of rebellion against God, not a parent. I'm also thinking about many passages directly related to child raisin' - Prodigal Son parable, Train up a child in the way he should go.......Fathers, don't exasperate your children........etc..

Context, Harv. You gotta take it all, and not just pieces, old snort. That's why I keep using the word context. That's what the bad religious folks mess up all the time.

Anonymous Poster · Sep 15, 2002

You two need a virtual hug. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

knucklehead · Sep 15, 2002

We HAVE been, Ben. It's just the rolling around in the dust, gruntin' and snortin', and the occasional click of horns that hides it! Besides, do you really want us arguing about whose arms go over the others' arms? Unless I misunderstood, and you're, um, volunteering!

Harv thinks I'm trying to save him, and all I really want to do is get him out of that overgrown forklift he drives.

OOOOOOOOOOH! The gloves are OFF, folks!

/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

BigDave · Sep 15, 2002

Cold Fusion...ouch that hurts. /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif Actually, many people were suspiscious from the start, well everyone except for Time & Newsweek. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif The accepted scientific practice is to have a peer review of your work prior to public disclosure. This a key point in getting "published." The two Professors involved with cold fusion fiasco did no such thing, they went immediately to the press with their apparent discovery. They were inadvertantly adding energy to their experiment. Once peer review occurred, which was long after their press release, they were shown the errors of their ways. The Boeing press release falls into a scientific gray area. They conduct their peer reviews internally to protect their interests, basically to keep a break through a corporate secret until they can profit from their research, without giving away any advantage to their competition. When Boeing makes a useful widget, they will have more complete disclosure. Until then there are two avenues, read the scientific journals on the foundations of this type of work, or wait for NASA to release their research in this area.

BTW, peer review prior to publication isn't perfect, I remember researching a mathematical theorem, that was proven and disproven multiple times in scientific publications over the course of a few years.

Now let me join the actual discussion. All of this law of gravity stuff is just an example of the argument that there are no absolutes. Yes, they are preceived absolutes, and most of them may very well be absolutes, but just like God may be an absolute; an omnipotent/omnipresent God may have created man and the universe. All of this may be abolsutely true, but does God have a God? Could eternity be finite to whatever caused God's existence. Is the question of faith a question of understanding? Does one need faith for things they can't understand or explain? Some scientists worship science claiming science will answer all of their questions; they have placed their faith in science. They are no diferent than Christians or Muslims; they need answers to the unkown. Yeah, many people claim to have all of the answers, and that's good for them. As I said previously, I believe (my faith) that both all religions are true and none are. I'm claiming man's collective understanding of God is greater than any individual group, and man collectively still doesn't have all of the answers. Is my cosmology out of kilter with the large majority of people...YES. Do I need to be saved...YES (if you think your understanding of God is better than mine.) Do I think you need to be saved...NO (you are partly correct with your religion, and I tend to look at the positive in people.)

Finally, I would like to share something I saw in a South Park Cartoon. I don't remember it verbatum, but everybody had died and were waiting outside St. Peter's gate demanding to get into heaven. St. Peter stated that everyone was going to hell. One person spoke up and asked St. Peter, 'This can't be possible, we have Jews, Christians and Muslims represented here, one of us must have gotten it right'? St. Peter replied, 'The only true religion is....Mormon." There was a bunch of mumbling and comments like 'it fugures' or 'of course,' but all the way in the back, one guy jumped up and shouted 'woohoo.' I rolled over laughing. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Anonymous Poster · Sep 15, 2002

Noooo Way! I ain't gettin' near you two till the dust settles. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

knucklehead · Sep 15, 2002

I know, we gotta keep our sense of humor; without it, I wouldn't have any sense at all.

C'mon, Ben, it's lovely once you get used to teeth on your ear!

WooooooHooooo!

wroughtn_harv · Sep 15, 2002

Finally, I would like to share something I saw in a South Park Cartoon. I don't remember it verbatum, but everybody had died and were waiting outside St. Peter's gate demanding to get into heaven. St. Peter stated that everyone was going to hell. One person spoke up and asked St. Peter, 'This can't be possible, we have Jews, Christians and Muslims represented here, one of us must have gotten it right'? St. Peter replied, 'The only true religion is....Mormon." There was a bunch of mumbling and comments like 'it fugures' or 'of course,' but all the way in the back, one guy jumped up and shouted 'woohoo.'

I like that. It fits right in with my explanation why I'm not worried when an enthusiastic person explains that if I die an atheist and there is a god I'll be in deep trouble. Where if I die a christian and there is no god it won't matter cause I'll be dead.

I explain to them that I've got most of the bases covered just in case. I'd hate like heck to waste a life serving the wrong god. So I've done work for the Muslim temple, bunch of Baptist churches, and even made the dome for a Sikh temple.

I believe (my faith) that both all religions are true and none are. I'm claiming man's collective understanding of God is greater than any individual group, and man collectively still doesn't have all of the answers.

I can go along with that. It's nice to meet a fellow believer in non believing of sorts.

One of the thing I've noticed is very sincere believers are attracted to each other. I think believing in of itself is it's own reward. Those who engage in it seem to have a cheerior /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif attitude about life in general and handle misfortune better in particular.

One of my customer's wife as they were walking me to the door after a sales call wanted to know just what faith I belonged. She proudly claimed they were Mormon and they had both felt a spirit with me that they attributed to me being a christian.

It sorta put me on the spot. But I told them the truth. They went into like denial not understanding how their spirit could be confused by that of an atheist. I assumed I wasn't going to get the job just because of that. But I figured it was their loss not mine.

I got the job. We had a ton of fun. But what had the three of us in stitches was when their home builder (Pulte) blamed me for a drainage problem and then refused to meet with me over it because he knew he didn't stand a chance because he was sure I was from their church./w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif It was because of my fence that their back yard didn't drain properly.

They arranged a meeting with the builder and had me drop by to give my point of view. The builder rep was down right rude. When I saw the way the wind was blowing I turned to the customer and told them I'd call an engineer and have them look at it. Then we would let the loser pay for the engineer's report and the work to correct the problem. After all that was what lawyers were for. And then I headed for the exit.

The builder's rep's attitude did an immediate one eighty. He accepted my offer of using my transit to shoot some points. When we were done with that it seems my fence was just fine and he'd have the guys come over and correct an obvious problem on their part.

They like most of my customers are my friends. And they are still convinced that I'm really a christian at heart. They haven't put it together that what binds us is more about believing than what we each believe in.

BigDave · Sep 15, 2002

Harv, it sounds like you have a good soul, well that is, if they exist. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif When I run into a person on the street, and asked about my religon, I tell them that I am Catholic; to me it's no different than saying I'm from New Jersey. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif Yeah, I was raised Catholic and it is very much a part of me, but I don't share the spiritual beliefs of the church. I don't see the need to get into a spiritual argument with a stranger. Why? I believe everyone's religous beliefs are in some way correct, I don't feel the need to convert them as they feel they need to convert me. I usually don't fit in with the aetheists or agnostics either, there's plenty of room for God in my life, I just don't believe I have the capability of defining God; I'm only human. /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif I believe everyone should lead a good life and help others, well at least do no harm. I believe you and I do this because it feels right. What make's it right? That's the subject of this discussion. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif I don't have the answers, and that's one of the foundations of my faith.