:laughing: Which is it holmes? :thumbsup:
How is this not robbery?
- Thread starter J_J
- Start date
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:laughing: Which is it holmes? :thumbsup:
MossRoad
Super Moderator
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 57,924
- Location
- South Bend, Indiana (near)
- Tractor
- Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year
I'm gonna agree with J_J on this one.
If they are going to charge you for hourly labor, they should only charge you for the hours they spent on your job. If they charge your for more hours than it actually took and the agreement was to pay by the hour, then yes, it is dishonest. Pretty simple, really. The problem as I see it is when an ESTIMATE and a QUOTE are blurred together.
If they ESTIMATE it will take three hours of labor and it only takes two hours of labor, they should only charge you two hours of labor. But if it takes four, you should pay for four. The problems with this method are they can mis-estimate the job, run into problems, unscrupulous mechanics can milk the labor, etc... Your really have to trust your mechanic to agree to this arrangement as the price is, well, an estimate and can end up being a lot more than originally estimated, and sometimes a pleasant surprise when it is less.
If they QUOTE A TOTAL PRICE of X dollars for the job and estimate it will take three hours to complete and it only takes two or actually takes four, they should still only charge you X dollars because they quoted you the total price of the job. This method works well if you can stomach the feeling that you paid too much for labor when they call you an hour after you drop off the car and tell you it is done already when they thought it would take 4 hours. :laughing:
I find that most garages do a combination QUOTE and ESTIMATE, where they tell you the estimated hours it will take, plus parts. They will never charge you less hours even if it takes them less hours, but they will charge you more hours if it takes more hours, up to a point. They usually know when to call you to readjust the estimate/quote if they run into problems. I do not like this method all that much, but that's what most garages do.
I have two mechanics that I trust. One gives me an estimate and the other gives me a total quote for labor. The estimate guy works for an owner. The quote guy works out of his house. I use both of them depending on the situation.
The estimate guy tells me it will be parts plus AT LEAST X hours labor, but could take a little more labor if problems arise. So, I know up front that I am going to pay AT LEAST X dollars for starters and it could go up if things go bad. It rarely does and he calls me if it is going to exceed the estimated time before he continues and shows me the reason it is going to take longer or if an additional part is needed. His garage is a block from my work.
The quote guy never charges me more for the labor of the job than he originally quoted. Parts are extra. He doesn't charge me a mark-up for parts. He is close to my house.
If they are going to charge you for hourly labor, they should only charge you for the hours they spent on your job. If they charge your for more hours than it actually took and the agreement was to pay by the hour, then yes, it is dishonest. Pretty simple, really. The problem as I see it is when an ESTIMATE and a QUOTE are blurred together.
If they ESTIMATE it will take three hours of labor and it only takes two hours of labor, they should only charge you two hours of labor. But if it takes four, you should pay for four. The problems with this method are they can mis-estimate the job, run into problems, unscrupulous mechanics can milk the labor, etc... Your really have to trust your mechanic to agree to this arrangement as the price is, well, an estimate and can end up being a lot more than originally estimated, and sometimes a pleasant surprise when it is less.
If they QUOTE A TOTAL PRICE of X dollars for the job and estimate it will take three hours to complete and it only takes two or actually takes four, they should still only charge you X dollars because they quoted you the total price of the job. This method works well if you can stomach the feeling that you paid too much for labor when they call you an hour after you drop off the car and tell you it is done already when they thought it would take 4 hours. :laughing:
I find that most garages do a combination QUOTE and ESTIMATE, where they tell you the estimated hours it will take, plus parts. They will never charge you less hours even if it takes them less hours, but they will charge you more hours if it takes more hours, up to a point. They usually know when to call you to readjust the estimate/quote if they run into problems. I do not like this method all that much, but that's what most garages do.
I have two mechanics that I trust. One gives me an estimate and the other gives me a total quote for labor. The estimate guy works for an owner. The quote guy works out of his house. I use both of them depending on the situation.
The estimate guy tells me it will be parts plus AT LEAST X hours labor, but could take a little more labor if problems arise. So, I know up front that I am going to pay AT LEAST X dollars for starters and it could go up if things go bad. It rarely does and he calls me if it is going to exceed the estimated time before he continues and shows me the reason it is going to take longer or if an additional part is needed. His garage is a block from my work.
The quote guy never charges me more for the labor of the job than he originally quoted. Parts are extra. He doesn't charge me a mark-up for parts. He is close to my house.
I would love to be able to charge straight time my shop rate is 70 an hour! 
So all you guys who think thats the way to go just mention that to any journeyman in any field you encounter they will be happy to oblige!
In the mean time lets stick to published rates and keep a level playing field the dis-honest shops fade away while the good shops click along and fix cars and dont get into forum discussions like this because nobody talks about a good shop they just tell their friends. :thumbsup:
The zone reads codes with a 150 code reader for free (edit: so they can sell you an o2 sensor etc you can put on and then ultimately end up at a real shop where they put on what it really needs.) my scan tool is 7600 and it costs me over a grand a year to keep it updated I charge 35 to read codes and nothing if I am the one fixing the car fwtw part of my overhead. wink
So all you guys who think thats the way to go just mention that to any journeyman in any field you encounter they will be happy to oblige!
In the mean time lets stick to published rates and keep a level playing field the dis-honest shops fade away while the good shops click along and fix cars and dont get into forum discussions like this because nobody talks about a good shop they just tell their friends. :thumbsup:
The zone reads codes with a 150 code reader for free (edit: so they can sell you an o2 sensor etc you can put on and then ultimately end up at a real shop where they put on what it really needs.) my scan tool is 7600 and it costs me over a grand a year to keep it updated I charge 35 to read codes and nothing if I am the one fixing the car fwtw part of my overhead. wink
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OP
J_J
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2003
- Messages
- 18,952
- Location
- JACKSONVILLE, FL
- Tractor
- Power-Trac 1445, KUBOTA B-9200HST
Car Doc,
Thanks for posting your findings on the install.
My gut feeling told me this was wrong, and this was why I posted what I heard , saw, and had to pay. So overall this job cost me $150 labor, and $46 for the wiper motor.
I plan to ask around town about the labor rates, and the book estimates.
I believe it is only fair and honest to tell someone the labor rate, and the time it will take to fix whatever. It should also be fair to refund or reduce the amount if the job does not take the full estimated time.
What some of you seem to be saying, is when you take your car in for repair, is for the customer to not ask for labor rates, not ask how long to fix, just let them decide the amount after the job is done. Not on my dime, or quarter, I just don't have that many dollars to just give away. It is very tuff now days, as me and the bank own everything I have.
Thanks for posting your findings on the install.
My gut feeling told me this was wrong, and this was why I posted what I heard , saw, and had to pay. So overall this job cost me $150 labor, and $46 for the wiper motor.
I plan to ask around town about the labor rates, and the book estimates.
I believe it is only fair and honest to tell someone the labor rate, and the time it will take to fix whatever. It should also be fair to refund or reduce the amount if the job does not take the full estimated time.
What some of you seem to be saying, is when you take your car in for repair, is for the customer to not ask for labor rates, not ask how long to fix, just let them decide the amount after the job is done. Not on my dime, or quarter, I just don't have that many dollars to just give away. It is very tuff now days, as me and the bank own everything I have.
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Hey JJ,
No problem hope I can help anytime just ask!
I hope we (me and the other techs here) dont discourage you or anyone from asking questions at their local shop or around town on references that is good business and what keeps a good shop going but please dont anyone go in with the notion all shops are out to gig you that simply isn't the case you will see which ones to trust if you let them talk and hear what regular folks say you cant please everyone but you will know.
I have said this so many times over the years its almost my famous last words but people only know how to do what they know how to do and you get what you paid for either a good job or a bad job its still paid for.
At 45 an hour that is a red flag also I dont know anyone that works for that so there is something fishy like LD1 said and maybe a few others I am at a loss about that one too?
By that I mean they obviously are not a reputable business and not ethical and they dont even know how to cover their mistakes up that is what just kills me :laughing: not at you just the scenario its nuts.
I doubt there will be very many positive references if you ask around.
Like I also mentioned if they charged you lets say the 3 hrs and your close friend happened ti have his done for 1.5 hr somewhere else that is a red flag and this is what does these shiesters in eventually after they do all the harm to us good shops they pull out and leave the bad taste literaly. And any shop that is selling hours is not very smart either fwtw.
I have seen it many many times in my small town of 15k population fly by nighters hang a sign and start under cutting everyone else people flock to them thinking they are saving money and the rest of us are out making a killing and the next thing we see is their mistakes showing up on our door steps it goes on and on.
Take care I will be asking your advice on my pto log splitter project later this year.
No problem hope I can help anytime just ask!
I hope we (me and the other techs here) dont discourage you or anyone from asking questions at their local shop or around town on references that is good business and what keeps a good shop going but please dont anyone go in with the notion all shops are out to gig you that simply isn't the case you will see which ones to trust if you let them talk and hear what regular folks say you cant please everyone but you will know.
I have said this so many times over the years its almost my famous last words but people only know how to do what they know how to do and you get what you paid for either a good job or a bad job its still paid for.
At 45 an hour that is a red flag also I dont know anyone that works for that so there is something fishy like LD1 said and maybe a few others I am at a loss about that one too?
By that I mean they obviously are not a reputable business and not ethical and they dont even know how to cover their mistakes up that is what just kills me :laughing: not at you just the scenario its nuts.
I doubt there will be very many positive references if you ask around.
Like I also mentioned if they charged you lets say the 3 hrs and your close friend happened ti have his done for 1.5 hr somewhere else that is a red flag and this is what does these shiesters in eventually after they do all the harm to us good shops they pull out and leave the bad taste literaly. And any shop that is selling hours is not very smart either fwtw.
I have seen it many many times in my small town of 15k population fly by nighters hang a sign and start under cutting everyone else people flock to them thinking they are saving money and the rest of us are out making a killing and the next thing we see is their mistakes showing up on our door steps it goes on and on.
Take care I will be asking your advice on my pto log splitter project later this year.
irwin
Veteran Member
Here's the time to R&R a wiper motor in a 1992 F150... in blue and white. Someone was trying to either impress you with the difficulty or they were just dishonest, either way they did you a disservice... Feel free to use this attachment to fight the cost of your repair... ( I looked up all the "92" F150 setups.. 4WD, 2WD, 6cyl, V8... all the same) Now Alldata is only one labor guide, there are 2 other big ones, Chiltons, and Mitchells. They may differ several tenths of an hour, usually they are the same or very close. .I'm not at work so I can't check the others.
Don't confuse warranty time.. shops aren't suppose to make any more money than to cover expenses at warranty time (on newer vehicles only)
In other words, you'll go out of business if that's the number you use to bid jobs on cars older than a few years... like others have said.. dirt, rust, old siezed bolts etc.
The fact that you were misled and the job pays less than you were told doesn't change the estimate system that we've been talking about.. A slow tech should not be rewarded for slacking off...period. Conversely, a gifted tech should not be penalized for being exceptional.
Don't confuse warranty time.. shops aren't suppose to make any more money than to cover expenses at warranty time (on newer vehicles only)
In other words, you'll go out of business if that's the number you use to bid jobs on cars older than a few years... like others have said.. dirt, rust, old siezed bolts etc.
The fact that you were misled and the job pays less than you were told doesn't change the estimate system that we've been talking about.. A slow tech should not be rewarded for slacking off...period. Conversely, a gifted tech should not be penalized for being exceptional.
Attachments
Qapla
Veteran Member
OK, let me get this straight...
If I take my 4 year old vehicle that I bought new and have now driven for 80,000 miles in for repair because it has a 5 year/1000,000 mile warranty, it will be one price.
However, If I take the same make/model car with the same 80,000 miles that I bought used when it had 20,000 miles on it (so I did not get the full warranty but I did put the majority of the moles on it) that now I have to pay a higher rate since the car with the same number of miles and the same year of manufacture is somehow older and harder to work on?
I guess I just don't get it.
Think about it this way ...
Say you went into the carpet store to buy new flooring. The store advertises that you can have the new carpet installed the next day. The carpet cost $18 dollars per yard.
However, when you give the dimensions of your floors to the salesman, he figure your carpet needs to be 115 yards. You buy the carpet because it was on "sale" and the installation was "free".
115 yards = 86'3" of carpet.
The next day a qualified carpet crew shows up with a roll of carpet in their van. They take out the roll and lay it in the driveway. They go into the house and measure the rooms. They return to the roll and begin cutting the roll into room sized pieces. When they are all done, there is a 5' piece of uncut rug left.
However, you were there as they were cutting the carpet and know that the roll was 75' long.
Now, 75' is 100 yards and the 5' left over is 6.6 yards. So, they only used 70' of carpet for your house (after all, they are good professional carpet layers and know their job quite well). So, you actually had 93.3 yards of carpet installed because the installers were good at their job.
Remember, you paid for 115 yards. They installed 93.3 yards. At $18 @ yard, you paid an extra $389.98 for 21.66 yards of carpet that was not installed.
Would you just figure that that is OK?
Oh, but that is different ... SURE it is :laughing:
Over estimating is over estimating ... especially when you know that the estimate is more then is needed (remember, the carpet roll should have been 86 feet long and they came with 75')
This is no different then a shop knowing that a job takes 1.5 hours to do because they have done that job many times but charging for 2 or 3 hours because the "book" says that is the estimated labor time.
Now, if you wouldn't mind paying an extra $400 dollars the next time you buy carpet, keep using the flat rate book even when you know the time listed is too long for the job at hand.
Mikeeemo
Silver Member
In my family, we develop a relationship with people that do business with integrity. I have a one on one relationship with my mechanic (actually two shops, btw one is a new car dealer), tire store ( a family business with 4 employees), my banker, my doctor, etc.
I was taught long ago that if "you can't see yourself having a cup of coffee with them, they are probably not someone that you want to interact with".
None of the businesses that I deal with are the cheapest, however they all deal with me in a fair manner, and I with them.
If I walk in a place and don't get a good feeling, then I move along.
I shop for a business that wants ALL of my business and treats me that way.
Seems that a lot of these places just want a "sale", that alone will not keep them paying the bills.
I was taught long ago that if "you can't see yourself having a cup of coffee with them, they are probably not someone that you want to interact with".
None of the businesses that I deal with are the cheapest, however they all deal with me in a fair manner, and I with them.
If I walk in a place and don't get a good feeling, then I move along.
I shop for a business that wants ALL of my business and treats me that way.
Seems that a lot of these places just want a "sale", that alone will not keep them paying the bills.
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