Tractor Sizing How Much Can A Sub Compact Tractor lift?

[davesl708]

As the Cat D9, my BX can build a road anywhere in the world, given time. (like a 1000 years):thumbsup:

 

[4570Man]

As the Cat D9, my BX can build a road anywhere in the world, given time. (like a 1000 years):thumbsup:

A D9 can move more dirt in a week than the BX will live to move. Carrying dirt across a nice yard without destroying it is another story.

 

[TomSeller]

Several on hear that say its an over-sized garden tractor. read again.

I like my smaller tractors, I like my larger tractors. Each tractor has roles and capable at doing what I use them for.

The larger ones can't do all that the smaller ones can do and the smaller ones can't do all that the larger ones can do.

All are just as important, just as different wrench sizes are. I can't imagine saying one wrench is better than another.

 

[LD1]

Round 2? or is it 3 now?

Some people have reading comprehension problems no?

Overgrown garden TRACTOR

It is a tractor. NO ONE is saying otherwise. Overgrown and garden only refer to the size or "class" of tractor that it is.

Its a freaking wonder some of you dont get upset at the use of "sub compact" prior to tractor. By definition that means BELOW SMALL. Or REALLY SMALL.

And agreed, a SCUT is in NO WAY more capable than a CUT or UT. Versatile...perhaps. Thats like saying my Dodge 1-ton is more capable than a kenworth 18-wheeler because I have a bed and tailgate:laughing:

 

[GManBart]

This is why LD-1's chart shows the same numbers for ground level lift and "breakout at the pins". Because they are the same! As he said his curl or "roll back" force is much higher.

Nope. The breakout force was 2442lbs. The lift at ground level was 1200kg, which is 2,640lbs. Not the same as you suggest.

Yes, lift capacity at ground level is exactly that. Agreed. This figure is listed in CUT brochures as "breakout at the pins" using method #6 of the standard. When companies provide both lift capacity at ground level and breakout force. They are not using method #6 of the standard for breakout force. They are either using method #5 or #7. As such, in these cases it will never say "breakout at the pins". In these cases "breakout" will always be given at some point beyond the pins.

You're stating an opinion, not a fact. Go find where a CUT manufacturer references the standard format they're using when listing their breakout force figure.

#6 above is what most CUT manufacturers are publishing but they publish breakout "at the pins" that is the bucket pins. When any of these methods is used, some fixed distance from the hinge point must be specified otherwise the number is meaningless. CUT manufacturers typically specify the pins, meaning the bucket attachment pins. They could also specify bucket lip on standard bucket, 500mm out from pins, 800 mm out from pins etc.

By specifying the pins, they eliminate the curl cylinders from the test entirely. It is only the lift cylinders. It is impossible for it to include the curl cylinders because of where the force is measured - "at the pins".

Many manufactures post breakout force at points other than the pins. In fact, Kioti publishes it for both the pins and the bucket edge for your loader....thought maybe you might have noticed that. That brings the curl cylinder back into the test.

Further, you're mistaken in how the measurement is actually conducted. You're suggesting that the lift force is measured at the pins, but that isn't correct. It's not like they put a chain from the pins to a strain gauge. The force is measured when the load is centered on the pins. The force is factored when the rear tires raise off the ground....i.e. how much weight needs to be centered on the pins to cause the rear tires to lift.

It would be nice if all manufacturers agreed to a standardized set of specs to quote from, but that isn't likely.

It's kind of funny to see people arguing about loader specs and what term is assigned to them. Run the bucket into a pile of sand/gravel and use all the lift capacity you have. When that isn't enough, use the curl function and you might lift the rear tires off the ground...I think that's part of a definition I saw somewhere. Lift and curl functions and rear tires lifting.... :confused3:

 

[GManBart]

Oh really? Anyone here know the history of tractors? Wasnt that long ago when a 17HP single attachment tractor was considered a full blown tractor. I made the comment because of other comments that argue about claims the tractor can do more than what most believe. If you dont like my comment-dont read it

Anyone disputing the capabilities of these SCUTs or disputing that they are not tractors-get over yourselves. facts are the facts.

You must have forgotten what you posted. You can read it yourself:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...-can-sub-compact-post4286752.html#post4286752

94Bullitt said: "Why is it that some SCUT owners feel the need to act like their tractor is way more capable than what it is?"

You replied "Because it's fun!"

I simply asked you why you'd say it's fun to act like your tractor was far more capable than it really is....that makes no sense at all.

I've never discounted the abilities of SCUTs.

I could have bought a CUT but my tractor has more options and is more capable than a CUT.

More capable at what? It can't lift more, pull more, push more.


It has more options than a CUT? :laughing:

Is having only a 2-range tranny an option, or a "feature" in this case? Does it have any of the following: pedal linked throttle, HST response control, ground speed cruise control, turn assist, anti-stall, PTO cruise control, position control on the 3PH, telescopic lift arms or stabilizer links, or SSQA on the loader? Those are all pretty common features, or options, on CUTs, but I don't believe any were available on the GC2410.

 

[gladehound]

Many manufactures post breakout force at points other than the pins. In fact, Kioti publishes it for both the pins and the bucket edge for your loader....thought maybe you might have noticed that. That brings the curl cylinder back into the test.

It sounds like you are confusing bucket rollback and breakout at the pins. Kioti does not publish breakout anywhere but at the pins for my loader. I know my own loader's specs. Here is what Kioti publishes for the KL402.

Lift capacity to maximum height at pivot pin (2761 lbs)
Breakout force at pivot pin (3,727 lbs)
Bucket rollback force at ground line (2,990 lbs @19.7")

I have not seen breakout published for CUTs anywhere but at the pin in recent years. If you have any examples where breakout is published for some point other than "at the pins" for any modern CUT please share as I do not think it is very common at all anymore in the CUT market. However, for construction equipment breakout is typically given at some point forward of the pins.

Further, you're mistaken in how the measurement is actually conducted. You're suggesting that the lift force is measured at the pins, but that isn't correct. It's not like they put a chain from the pins to a strain gauge. The force is measured when the load is centered on the pins. The force is factored when the rear tires raise off the ground....i.e. how much weight needs to be centered on the pins to cause the rear tires to lift.

Yes, I am suggesting that the lift force is measured at the pins. Where else is a force that is "at the pins" measured if not at the pins.

It's kind of funny to see people arguing about loader specs and what term is assigned to them. Run the bucket into a pile of sand/gravel and use all the lift capacity you have. When that isn't enough, use the curl function and you might lift the rear tires off the ground...I think that's part of a definition I saw somewhere. Lift and curl functions and rear tires lifting.... :confused3:

I actually don't think it's funny at all. I think it is a shame that manufacturers are not transparent about how they measure loader performance. I 100% agree with you that once you own a tractor / loader it doesn't make much difference. It lifts what it can and doesn't lift what it can't. No discussion needed.

However, if you want to rent or buy a piece of equipment, being able to compare specifications across manufacturers and compare them to known jobs that you need the machine to be able to handle, and understand what a given loaders specs really mean is important.

 

[gladehound]

Gman,

I wrote...

"This is why LD-1's chart shows the same numbers for ground level lift and "breakout at the pins". Because they are the same! As he said his curl or "roll back" force is much higher."

You wrote...

Nope. The breakout force was 2442lbs. The lift at ground level was 1200kg, which is 2,640lbs. Not the same as you suggest.

Please realize that 1200kg lift at ground level was never given to the kg, or even to the closes 10 kg. It is only an estimate from a line graph which hash marks at 1000kg and 1500kg. Not precise enough to draw the conclusion that they are not the same. In all fairness, it is also not precise enough to draw the conclusion that they are the same. It's a weak argument either way.

The strong argument is that breakout force is given at the bucket pins. As such, curling cannot have an impact.

Now I am not deputing that it is helpful to curl while lifting to break out of a pile. But that is for completely different reasons. Specifically, if you don't curl while you lift you are trying to push the pile forward (or tractor backwards) in addition to lifting. And that is why curl seems stronger than lift on most (but not all) tractors. In reality, my lift is slightly stronger than curl at the bucket edge at ground level. But curling can still help me breakout of a pile not by increasing the force the tractor can product but instead by decreasing the resistance to raising the bucket.

 

[GManBart]

I have not seen breakout published for CUTs anywhere but at the pin in recent years. If you have any examples where breakout is published for some point other than "at the pins" for any modern CUT please share as I do not think it is very common at all anymore in the CUT market. However, for construction equipment breakout is typically given at some point forward of the pins.

Luckily, TSO, our resident Massey fan, posted a whole bunch of info comparing his DL130 loader to the newer DL135 loader. Massey provides all sorts of information. You'll note that breakout is listed at both the pins and at 20" forward. They also list bucket rollback force at 20" at ground level and it's very different from breakout force at ground level.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...3-dl130-vs-dl135-post4102469.html#post4102469

 

[GManBart]

Deere also posts breakout at various distances for CUT loaders...pins, 500mm (essentially 20") etc. Here's one example (you'll have to click on the Specifications tab, and follow the prompts):

https://www.deere.com/en_US/product...ding_and_digging/h180_loader/h180_loader.page

Kubota regularly provides breakout at 500mm as well (along with many other figures):

http://www.kubota.com/product/l3200/pdf/l_series_spec.pdf

So far, Deere, Massey, Kubota, and that's all I've checked. You can't really say that CUT manufacturers don't commonly provide breakout force forward of the pins....some do, some don't.