How to kill yourself without knowing
- Thread starter nebraskasparks
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texasjohn
Super Member
Oh, my, surely you joust....er...jest.....<grin>
Wonder, in the old days if there was a court fact-er the same way there was a court jester ?? Of course, in those days with no net, God only knows what authority they would find to quote...Issac Newton being the only extant authority of ill repute who could be quoted. :laughing::thumbsup:
Wonder, in the old days if there was a court fact-er the same way there was a court jester ?? Of course, in those days with no net, God only knows what authority they would find to quote...Issac Newton being the only extant authority of ill repute who could be quoted. :laughing::thumbsup:
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SPYDERLK
Super Star Member
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Yes, especially in mixed context situations ... And further compounded by slight of hand on those unwary of the specious. -- In the above quote from reference doc, shear remoteness of the threat is a reason for slow response behavior. If at 500 feet you abruptly come into view of that roadblock the reaction would not be the same, but the "cushion" would be comparable.
The most glaring problem with the reference statement is the inclusion of stopping time in the mix without factoring in the reduced speeds effect on the total incident distance. The next would be the use of average completion of maneuver time. This is highly inflated when applied to a full alert action period of the incident. Braking from 60 in 4.5 sec is a ho hum rate.
Unmixing the facts so that they hang together just doesnt produce the sensational results claimed. ??Agenda: somebody's particular motive: an underlying personal viewpoint or bias.??
Encarta ｮ World English Dictionary
larry
The Haymaker
Veteran Member
I see a class action against Peg Perego. There are no ROPS on their models. My boy has already rolled his after learning the effects of long, steep grassy knolls and plastic tires.
TripleR
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Great minds are often misunderstood or even persecuted in their own time. Some day Mr. Simpson will take his rightful place among the other great philosophers.:laughing:
My comment was meant as levity as I do appreciate all the information presented by NEBRASKASPARKS and others.
patrick_g
Elite Member
1. I have less then 10 years tractor experience all of which is on thye same Kubota Grand L-4610HSTC (39 PTO HP with cab and HST)
2. The first year I had my tractor I saw a guy back a tractor off a trailer at a tractor repair shop but he missed disconnecting one tie down chain. Tractor flipped in a heartbeat pinning the op to the pavement with the steering wheel (older tractor, no ROPS.) EMT's hauled him off on a back board with cervical collar in place. He did not look good.
3. That same year an 80 year old farmed-his-whole-life man near here was working under his brush hog to clear some wrapped wire when it fell on him and crushed him to death.
4. A few months ago a friend was out for a morning walk and found her neighbor's tractor with brush hog attached, upside down in his pond (been mowing around the pond for over 30 years.) He was under it and had been there for a couple days.
5. I was brush hogging a dam on one of my 12 ponds recently. I have brush hogged it many times. Never before was it exciting and never before did I ever turn sideways on the steep (water) side of the dam. I was on auto-pilot (mental auto-pilot not cruise control on tractor) with my thoughts occupied by other issues when I was suddenly on three wheels headed for 2 wheels and beginning to roll over toward the water. I snapped the wheel to the right (toward the water) which provided centrifugal force to get tractor on 4 wheels and then got off the HST (nearly equivalent to putting on breaks heavily) while turning the wheel back to the left to avoid driving into the pond.
With the tractor stopped and my heart started up again I was parked parallel to the water about 2-3 inches away. Due to drought the mud wasn't too bad next to the water and the tires were only in a few inches. I drove slowly away... no harm no foul.
Lesson learned? When you least expect it, expect it! Can I be sure my mind will never wander off topic again? No way. I try to be safe but stuff happens.
Why did I do such a stupid thing as drive on the steep side of the dam parallel to the dam instead of at right angles as I had done every time before for many years? I assure you I didn't do it on purpose with conscious knowledge. I guess what little part of my brain that was involved in tractor ops reverted to driving as in driving a car from here to there instead of OPERATING the tractor.
Be careful, I obviously got a little help from blind luck and my avoidance maneuver worked but you can't count on it.
Patrick
2. The first year I had my tractor I saw a guy back a tractor off a trailer at a tractor repair shop but he missed disconnecting one tie down chain. Tractor flipped in a heartbeat pinning the op to the pavement with the steering wheel (older tractor, no ROPS.) EMT's hauled him off on a back board with cervical collar in place. He did not look good.
3. That same year an 80 year old farmed-his-whole-life man near here was working under his brush hog to clear some wrapped wire when it fell on him and crushed him to death.
4. A few months ago a friend was out for a morning walk and found her neighbor's tractor with brush hog attached, upside down in his pond (been mowing around the pond for over 30 years.) He was under it and had been there for a couple days.
5. I was brush hogging a dam on one of my 12 ponds recently. I have brush hogged it many times. Never before was it exciting and never before did I ever turn sideways on the steep (water) side of the dam. I was on auto-pilot (mental auto-pilot not cruise control on tractor) with my thoughts occupied by other issues when I was suddenly on three wheels headed for 2 wheels and beginning to roll over toward the water. I snapped the wheel to the right (toward the water) which provided centrifugal force to get tractor on 4 wheels and then got off the HST (nearly equivalent to putting on breaks heavily) while turning the wheel back to the left to avoid driving into the pond.
With the tractor stopped and my heart started up again I was parked parallel to the water about 2-3 inches away. Due to drought the mud wasn't too bad next to the water and the tires were only in a few inches. I drove slowly away... no harm no foul.
Lesson learned? When you least expect it, expect it! Can I be sure my mind will never wander off topic again? No way. I try to be safe but stuff happens.
Why did I do such a stupid thing as drive on the steep side of the dam parallel to the dam instead of at right angles as I had done every time before for many years? I assure you I didn't do it on purpose with conscious knowledge. I guess what little part of my brain that was involved in tractor ops reverted to driving as in driving a car from here to there instead of OPERATING the tractor.
Be careful, I obviously got a little help from blind luck and my avoidance maneuver worked but you can't count on it.
Patrick
Don87
Elite Member
Thanks for the good info in this thread.
Things can happen quickly: YouTube - Tractor-Truck-Car CRASH VOL2
Things can happen quickly: YouTube - Tractor-Truck-Car CRASH VOL2
EE_Bota
Veteran Member
A few comments:
First, the name of the thread "How to kill yourself without knowing" is a bit odd, and reminds me of many a twilight zone episode, and causes a bit of a dilemma for me.
Gorillas. When I was a little pre-school kid, seeing news reports about the war where the US was fighting "gorillas," and then later seeing that same night "Planet of the Apes" (the series) where apparently the war was already lost....let's just say I had lots of strange ideas about humans, gorillas, and a strong respect for the military.
I wonder if any adults during that time ever stopped to consider how a four year old like me would reconcile the war reports and the Planet of the Apes series. My parents finally figured it out one night when a news report talked about a setback the troops had, and I started crying and packing up to go join the fight. They put two and two together, and explained:
"The "gorillas" are people."
"Which ones?"
"Both."
"Are all gorillas people?"
"No, some gorillas are people, some are not, but all gorillas are animals."
"Which are not people?"
"The ones in Africa are not people."
"Are we fighting the ones in Africa?"
"No, we are fighting the ones in Vietnam."
"Are they people or gorillas."
"Both, wait, which ones?" (I don't remember anymore, but there were 10 children in my family, so something probably got knocked over, and I was still left with a fear of talking gorillas.)
Here is a story of something that happened to me this week that makes me skeptical that the 3/4 sec back flip is actionable by a human because our body likely will fail to respond by pushing the clutch due to balance issues. Even if you can trick your body into responding, unless you are belted in, your response will likely fail because the reaction force will probably move the body instead of the body moving the clutch.
Recently, I was mowing my ditch with the little riding mower. I was on an incline where the tractor was leaning to the left, and when it was time to go up the ditch to avoid the culvert lined with rip rap, my front wheel ran into a rut it could not steer out of. I was headed straight into the hole.
My mind said STOP THE MOWER, but my body declined the request with no explanation given.
My mind, instead of finding an alternative, started immediate calculations to determine why my left leg disobeyed a direct order. A parallel routine was running calculations about when is it time to jump off and run, as my right arm did a quick sweep to make sure none of my clothing was snagged in case the time to jump is NOW.
But a fault routine kicked in and interrupted both of those processes, and much to my surprise, ordered my LEFT ARM to reach down and press the clutch instead, and exited returning the value IDIOT!!! (I was surprised by this. I don't remember it being a direct thought such as "I know..use your arm instead!"
While there in that rather awkward position, I could plainly see that my left foot was planted firmly on the floorboard. It was told to stay planted by one of our most basic overriding routines: the balance routine.
Having been a kayaker for many years, one of the things you have to overcome in order to roll a kayak is our apparently innate desire to keep our head up to maintain balance. Whether the water has much to do with it I cannot say. I presume the water may strengthen it, but I believe it is mostly innate. If you ever have to contemplate what a person will do during an upset, and you don't have any particular way to know the answer, you would be safe to assume that they will contort their body in whatever way is necessary to keep their head nearest vertical.
First, the name of the thread "How to kill yourself without knowing" is a bit odd, and reminds me of many a twilight zone episode, and causes a bit of a dilemma for me.
Gorillas. When I was a little pre-school kid, seeing news reports about the war where the US was fighting "gorillas," and then later seeing that same night "Planet of the Apes" (the series) where apparently the war was already lost....let's just say I had lots of strange ideas about humans, gorillas, and a strong respect for the military.
I wonder if any adults during that time ever stopped to consider how a four year old like me would reconcile the war reports and the Planet of the Apes series. My parents finally figured it out one night when a news report talked about a setback the troops had, and I started crying and packing up to go join the fight. They put two and two together, and explained:
"The "gorillas" are people."
"Which ones?"
"Both."
"Are all gorillas people?"
"No, some gorillas are people, some are not, but all gorillas are animals."
"Which are not people?"
"The ones in Africa are not people."
"Are we fighting the ones in Africa?"
"No, we are fighting the ones in Vietnam."
"Are they people or gorillas."
"Both, wait, which ones?" (I don't remember anymore, but there were 10 children in my family, so something probably got knocked over, and I was still left with a fear of talking gorillas.)
Here is a story of something that happened to me this week that makes me skeptical that the 3/4 sec back flip is actionable by a human because our body likely will fail to respond by pushing the clutch due to balance issues. Even if you can trick your body into responding, unless you are belted in, your response will likely fail because the reaction force will probably move the body instead of the body moving the clutch.
Recently, I was mowing my ditch with the little riding mower. I was on an incline where the tractor was leaning to the left, and when it was time to go up the ditch to avoid the culvert lined with rip rap, my front wheel ran into a rut it could not steer out of. I was headed straight into the hole.
My mind said STOP THE MOWER, but my body declined the request with no explanation given.
My mind, instead of finding an alternative, started immediate calculations to determine why my left leg disobeyed a direct order. A parallel routine was running calculations about when is it time to jump off and run, as my right arm did a quick sweep to make sure none of my clothing was snagged in case the time to jump is NOW.
But a fault routine kicked in and interrupted both of those processes, and much to my surprise, ordered my LEFT ARM to reach down and press the clutch instead, and exited returning the value IDIOT!!! (I was surprised by this. I don't remember it being a direct thought such as "I know..use your arm instead!"
While there in that rather awkward position, I could plainly see that my left foot was planted firmly on the floorboard. It was told to stay planted by one of our most basic overriding routines: the balance routine.
Having been a kayaker for many years, one of the things you have to overcome in order to roll a kayak is our apparently innate desire to keep our head up to maintain balance. Whether the water has much to do with it I cannot say. I presume the water may strengthen it, but I believe it is mostly innate. If you ever have to contemplate what a person will do during an upset, and you don't have any particular way to know the answer, you would be safe to assume that they will contort their body in whatever way is necessary to keep their head nearest vertical.
Egon
Epic Contributor
Still got some water in your ears Pat??:thumbsup:
texasjohn
Super Member
Fact is, I'm enjoying this thread
EE_Bota, thanks for the trip thru the joy we have in early childhood of making sense of the adult world:thumbsup: And, for the self aware description of how your mind works! Wish mine was so organized! Good job!
Patrick_g, thanks for the litany of dangerous situations both personally observed and experienced.:drool:
Nebraskasparks, I like your summary. TripleR... your levity makes a welcome interlude.:laughing:
The various discourses on human response time capability versus experimentation with Newton's laws reminds me somewhat of the question of how many angles can dance on the head of a pin. :mur:
Personally, I think danger exists, stuff happens and y'all need to be careful out there...we don't need any OhNosecond moments in time:shocked:
EE_Bota, thanks for the trip thru the joy we have in early childhood of making sense of the adult world:thumbsup: And, for the self aware description of how your mind works! Wish mine was so organized! Good job!
Patrick_g, thanks for the litany of dangerous situations both personally observed and experienced.:drool:
Nebraskasparks, I like your summary. TripleR... your levity makes a welcome interlude.:laughing:
The various discourses on human response time capability versus experimentation with Newton's laws reminds me somewhat of the question of how many angles can dance on the head of a pin. :mur:
Personally, I think danger exists, stuff happens and y'all need to be careful out there...we don't need any OhNosecond moments in time:shocked:
