HUNTERS BEWARE!!!

   / HUNTERS BEWARE!!! #31  
Ethical hunting has its place. I commend those who support the cause of stopping cruelty to animals (I won't go into the definition of "cruelty") but I think their efforts should be directed towards a more noble cause - sanctity of human life. Thousands of unborn babies, and babies being born, are killed each year. Surely human life is more valuable that the life of an animal. Or deaths of humans due to alcohol (drunk drivers, etc.).
 
   / HUNTERS BEWARE!!! #32  
This all relates to three things respect for the land owner, nature and firearms. After 20 years in the navy and being abroad numerous times even in countries were you don't speak the language.A sign of respect is greatly appreciated by both parties!!! Being a land owner and a hunter in Northen Vermont I can see both sides. Last year I had hunters standing at my fence line waiting for a deer. Only 100 feet from my house. I really don't appreciate that especially since my son (3) and the family dogs(really family) are constently out in out woodlot. Would I have given permission for the hunters to hunt my property if they had asked. Proberly but with conditions of were they could hunt on the property. As was I was some ticked off and went out to chase them off. Of course after you get over being mad you become aware that you just went out and pissed someone off with a loaded weapon. I was thinking about posting my land this year but decided to wait and see what happens this year.
On the other side I was raised in a family of hunters not really serious like if, you don't get a shot you feel depressed for a month but one of the appreciation of nature. The saying,"A bad day in the woods is better then a good day in the office." applies. We were brought up to appreciate nature and what it gives the world. This is the way I plan to raise my son. Yes, he will hunt is he wants to and yes, even now he has a hunting coat.But no, he will not have a toy firearm. Firearms are not toys they are to be respected!!!! That's just my input and I have really enjoyed this post.
Take care,
Al
p.s. Don't mind the spelling I'm only glad my wife with the teaching degree isn't here!!!!
 
   / HUNTERS BEWARE!!! #33  
ALAN, good post. It says a lot...
 
   / HUNTERS BEWARE!!! #34  
This discussion has ignored the overwhelming and obvious reason why sport hunters hunt: because they like to.

I doubt that any avid hunter wakes up in the morning and decides to hunt today because he feels like engaging in wildlife management, or because he wants to pay some license fees for wildlife preservation, or because he wants to save an animal from starvation, or because it is necessary to feed his family. He hunts for the same reason that golfers golf, bowlers bowl, fishermen fish, and people copulate: it gives him visceral and psychological pleasure to do so. He likes the stalk, he likes the wait, he likes the shot, and he likes the kill. It is pleasurable and psychologically rewarding. I am not being judgmental at all; but let's be real about motivations.

These thoughts came to my mind last night when I left this forum to go out and get a pizza at about 10 pm. There were 5 young deer in my front yard, probably chewing on my frazier fir. It hit me again that it is inconceivable -- to me -- that I could kill one these beautiful creatures, but yet many other ethical people not only can, but enjoy, doing so.

What I mean -- and this is the serious point I am trying to explore -- is that I have overwhelming psychological blocks and inhibitions against doing the same act that gives many other people psychological pleasure. The inhibitions and revulsion, in me, is almost as strong as the inhibition against killing a human. What accounts for these differing reactions among us?

I think it has to do both with nature and nurture, but mainly with nurture. Freud tried to explain human behavior by positing three constituents of human psychology: the id, the superego and the ego. The id represents the raw instincts and appetites we are born with genetically: appetite for food, sex, fear-flight, aggression, selfishness, etc. I would not be surprised if there were an inborn instinct to hunt, especially in males. If the childhood id remained unchecked, we would live in a state of natural war, aggression and violence, as Locke and Hobbes describe in their philosophies. Freud used the term superego to describe the civilizing forces -- such as family values, religion, morals and ethics -- that society imposes on id-driven children to mold them into civilized citizens. Our ego, in Freud's schema, is the individual personality we each develop as a result of the "battle" beteen our id and superego under each of our unique developmental circumstances.

To be more concrete and personal, I grew up in a family that valued pets and did not hunt nor have guns. Except for my grandfather, with whom I spent every summer in Maine from age 5 to 15. Those experiences in Maine with my grandfather gave me my lifetime love of the woods, the outdoors, hiking, and canoeing. If you look at my profile, you will see that all my avocations relate to the outdoors. My grandfather was a hunter. He had a gun rack made of deer hoofs. I felt this was cruel. He had a deer head on the wall. I was repulsed by the idea that someone would kill a deer and then scoop its brains out. He took me fishing all the time. I never liked it. Cleaning the fish disgusted me and I wouldn't eat them. I did not eat fish for 20 years. I cannot explain any of these reactions. He instilled in me a love of the outdoors, but I always reacted negatively to the hunting. I have always hated guns -- the way they look, feel, smell and sound. I realize many of you here cannot relate to that.

Two traumatic experiences stand out from my childhood development. Once I snuck into this queer looking building on farmer Day's property up in Maine. It was his abatoir, his slaugherhouse. The floor, walls and ceiling were covered with blood and the stench was awful. I got sick and dizzy and ran. Another incident was when I ordered a slingshot from Boys Life magazine. We were poor and I was proud of it. I shot at trees and things with marbles. I aimed at a squirrel, never believeing I could hit it, but I did. It fell on the ground, writhing and writhing and screeching and screeching in pain. I was paralyzed. I couldnt decide whether to try to shoot it with more marbles or to run away. I dont remember what I did, but I certainly ran away. I was profoundly ashamed and felt profoundly guilty. I threw the slingshot away.

I am not a vetetarian but my wife and daughter are. My wife was raised on a large rural property in upstate NY. Her father was a country doctor. They lived with many house pets and farm pets. Killing an animal was unthinkable. Her father taught just the opposite: heroic efforts must be made to save and protect all animals. So she grew up with a menagerie of injured, sick and abandoned animals. To this day, my wife will not even kill an insect. She tries to capture spiders and bees and shoo them outside. My children grew up in this kind of environment.

I don't draw the line in the same place as my wife. And this issue is about line drawing: where do you draw the line as to what living creatures you will kill and which you won't, and when. (This is similar to the line drawing that goes on in the unresolvable abortion debate. Some draw the line at conception and say that after that point society should not be able to terminate a fetus. Others draw the line later in the pregnancy to accomodate the circumstances of the woman. People who draw the line after birth are called murderers.)

I remember reading Albert Schweitzer's view on this when I was a boy. Schweitzer was not only a doctor, but had a Ph.D. in theology. He summed up his decision on line drawing and animal killing with his motto: "Reverence for life." He meant that we must revere as an equal anything that has been endowed by God with animal life force, including insects. Many religions have forms of this. Rats, for example. Killing rats may be above the line for most of us, including me, but in parts of India they are revered. They are all over the temples and town, living in harmony with the people.

This certainly is long-winded, even for me. What I am trying to sort out is why are some people pychologically enticed towards sport hunting while others are psychologically repelled by it. We all presumably are born with similar id urges. It has to be simply the way we were raised. If you were raised in a family where hunting was part of the common experience, and you engaged in it and were rewarded for it as a child, it is likely you get pleasure out of it as an adult.

But I can't quite explain the opposite development in myself. I was never exposed to any "animal rights" influences as a child, and my grandfather, who shaped me in many ways, was an avid hunter and fisherman. A puzzle.

I dont believe I have ever discussed this in my life before, but I think it is interesting to hear different points of view and experiences, and to respect the diversity of viewpoints among us. That is what distinguishes America from regimented societies like the Communist countries.

Glenn
 
   / HUNTERS BEWARE!!! #35  
Re: HUNTERS BEWARE!!! *DELETED*

Post deleted by Muhammad
 
   / HUNTERS BEWARE!!! #36  
Re: HUNTERS BEWARE!!! *DELETED*

Post deleted by Muhammad
 
   / HUNTERS BEWARE!!! #37  
Glenn, let me say (without going into the specifics of psychology), my family is/has been for generations, hunters, ranchers, and farmers. We were raised in the hunting traditions and lore for generations, clear back to Daniel Boone and beyond.
Deer/Elk were valuable as a source of food, and at times, considered next to being vermin when they would and will literally destroy a valuable cash crop (corn for example) overnight. Can a rural farm family (in the generations of small farms) afford such a loss? No, not on a regular basis, not if they wish to survive economically. I know of times when we killed as many as 13 deer in one night, BUT, having been brought up to not waste food, the deer were dressed and turned over to the county the next morning, and used in various county facilities. This was done with the blessing of the local fish and game department and requires a permit.
We were raised to essentially hunt only for the food value.
I personally do not hunt, and haven't since spending two years in the Republic of Viet Nam. I have nothing against the hunter who is hunting for the sake of a food item, and many hunters are doing such for just that reason. Nor do I begrudge the occassional poacher who is supporting his family in the only means available to him. I do rigorously pursue the ones who will poach one or more animals just to cut off the prime meat and leave the rest to rot. They are high on my list of undesirables!
Part of my logic will fall in the category of family values, such as my father teaching us boys that it was better to kill a deer for the venison, than to butcher a steer that was needed for selling for the cash value. He also maintained that "if the deer could live off of him, then we could certainly live off of them".
To add to this outlook, the Bible teaches us that God gave us dominion over all animals for man's use. Which is probably the greatest arguement for many. This still does not excuse the irresponsible actions of many hunters, NOR does it excuse the reckless, repugnant, and criminal action of the 'bomber' that instigated this forum.
Now I will climb down from the proverbial 'band-wagon' and slide back into anonymity.
 
   / HUNTERS BEWARE!!! #38  
Pity -

One of the things I like best about this message board is the congeniality and maturity of its members.

Too bad this serenity had to be spoiled by someone who hasn't even the courtesy to identify himself.

Am I missing something, or is it pretty easy to skip messages that are on a topic you're not interested in, or from a poster you care not to read?

HarvSig.gif
 
   / HUNTERS BEWARE!!! #39  
Harv I will agree with you 100%. Hopefully Muhammad will delete that post!!! It is quite obvious that the individual lacks maturity, as well as intolerance for viewpoints other than 'IT's' own. I am disappointed that anyone would post such garbage to the forum.
Makes me almost want to recommend that posting be limited to registered members!!!
 
   / HUNTERS BEWARE!!! #40  
Glenn, I'm not a big fan of Freud, so I'll let that alone. It seems to me that you are esentially asking why do some people enjoy hunting and others don't. And then there is the line drawing question.
Humans have been hunters, of some kind, for thousands of years, of course it's engrained in the psyche.
There is probably some truth, to the fact that those raised with it are more apt to like hunting. But thats not always the case as you yourself prove. I know of several others, so your not alone. I know of others who never hunted or fished until they were adults, and now can't get enough.
One thing I beleave, is that hunting provides a historical tie to our ancestors. For many of us that is a deep seated need. The ancestor might be Grandpa, or Daniel Boone, or cave men, but the need to identify with them is strong. Let me explain it this way. Now you have said that you once lived in Austin, so I know you must have seen this. Everyday all over Texas, men get dressed in the morning and pull on a pair of cowboy boots, maybe a western hat too, and off they go to work as electricans, lawyers, mechanics, you name it. Boots are not the most comfortable footwear, nor or they the best work boot. So why do they do it? Most of them can't give you a good explaination. The only reason I can come up with is that it provides a tie to the men who once rode the range, and to their values.
ErnieB
 

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