HVAC II, which one?

[Chuck52]

Aren't you also going to need to go down at least six feet for a closed loop system? That's not a trivial dig, for a few hundred feet. I've also never heard of a pump-and-dump system using a single well. I've thought about doing a pump-and-dump since I have two unused wells on my place, but the other major problem with any system that uses well water rather than a closed loop is water quality. The water from my wells is probably very hard, and I understand that can cause problems. Do you have to soften your water before use? I assume you'd bypass that for the water to the heat pump, but then you might have problems with scale build up on the heat exchanger. BTW, does anyone know what kind of volume of water we're talking about? If you made a pond, how big would it have to be?

Chuck

 

[Richard]

Aren't you also going to need to go down at least six feet for a closed loop system? That's not a trivial dig, for a few hundred feet. I've also never heard of a pump-and-dump system using a single well. I've thought about doing a pump-and-dump since I have two unused wells on my place, but the other major problem with any system that uses well water rather than a closed loop is water quality. The water from my wells is probably very hard, and I understand that can cause problems. Do you have to soften your water before use? I assume you'd bypass that for the water to the heat pump, but then you might have problems with scale build up on the heat exchanger. BTW, does anyone know what kind of volume of water we're talking about? If you made a pond, how big would it have to be?

Chuck

Chuck, you're right. I just talked to the guy. I would need about 600' of line, buried at 6' of depth (he's guessing on the 600 based on current unit size, he's coming out tomorrow to see the place)

Since I have a backhoe that will dig to 15' depth, hitting 6 will not be a problem. He said I could dig it as it would save me some money and them some effort. He ALSO said I could install a pump/dump system today and later on (after budget recovers), convert it to a closed loop. We would only need to divert the water flow from the dump to the loop.

I did not think about an easement!! excellent idea!!! VERY excellent idea!!

Also...talking to the guy today, I said my field might be 100' away from the house. If I need 600' buried, would I need 100' to the field, 600' in the field and then 100' back to the house OR would the 100' from the house to the field knock off 200' and I'd only need 400' in the field.

Seems I would need 600' total so the distance to/from the field would serve to lower the amount in the field... HOWEVER, when I told him about the electric lines, buried at 3 or 4' down he speculated I'd have to go above them (verses below) and that section could not count towards the 600' since it would not be 6' deep.

He guessed that the incremental cost from the pump/dump to a closed loop system (me doing the digging & backfilling) would be about $2,500 upcharge. By the way, the speculated price for a Climatemaster TSV-030 (Tranquility 27 series) was $6,000. He corrected that today saying it would be about $6,682 as a pump/dump install and if I added the closed loop, it would then go to about $9,182 with me doing the digging and backfilling.

 

[Richard]

By the way, can anyone share an opinion as to if Climate Master is well built/designed, junk or as has been said..."depends on the install"??

The more I'm reading about this geothermal stuff...the more inclined I am to go this avenue. Even with an install price of $9,200, I will evidently get a 30% tax credit ($2,760) come tax season, so the net cost would be $6,440 for something I'm reading should provide at minimum, equal comfort at a much reduced operating cost to me on an annual basis.

I can live with that.

I also read something where someone was complaining on not getting good results BUT that their system was buried 4' down. They went on to say that various soil types or various depths might affect the efficiency of the system. This brought up a question to me...

This guy is telling me it should be 6' down. Since I can dig down to 15', would there be any benefit to put it down, say 10'? 12'?

Also... if I may... my backhoe bucket is a 2' bucket. Would I need a 2' trench for the line out and line back or, could I lay two lines side by side in the 2' trench? Just how close can the lines be to each other?


I know I'm asking a lot of questions and I expect the guy tomorrow will answer many of them. I'm always dubious on taking everything a salesman has to say at face value since in fact, he's trying to sell me something (which isn't to say he's not being honest/accurate, I just like to independently find out on my own)

 

[Richard]

I'd like to specifically ask again for other opinions...

COULD this be dumped back into my well?

Again, here are my well tidbits:

GPM 100
Total depth 310 feet
Intake at 220 feet
Static level 104 feet
6" casing
3/4 horse pump

Could I plan for a pump/dump system and use my well water. Take the "used" water, tap a hole back into my well casing (he said he's done this before) and add some pipe inside the well so the actual discharge of water, is at say, 290 feet. This puts it below my intake and (hopefully) with 100 gmp flowing around down there, that would in effect, "wash" this discharge water away since it's also below my casing.

He told me the pump/dump would be (ever so slightly) more efficient than the closed loop, it would be less expensive too however, my real problem is the discharge water.

Let me rephrase part of my question... would putting this discharge back into my well, potentially HURT anything?

IN other words, if I tried it and one year from now, simply didn't like it, I could then redirect it to either dump elsewhere or I could then install the closed loop part.

If I could put it back into my well then that alone would keep things VERY nice & tidy regarding this whole ordeal.

Thoughts??

I'd like to repeat, I DO appreciate everyones input!

 

[Stimw]

My 3 ton unit recommends just under 9 gpm. I have used a 1/2 hp pump on both that I have installed.
It should be standard the the units come with a Coppro-Nickel coil for the water to go through. This coil holds up best to hard water.
Maybe you could put a loop in your well for the closed loop. You have 600' down and back. I just would not be comfortable using my drinking well for the heat pump.
Another possibility would be to dig 10' X300', put down the pipe, backfill 3-4' and run the pipe back to the house and total back fill. It would be half the digging. You could even reverse the loop for heat or cool. The bottom pipe would be a little warner or cooler depending on the cycle.
The beauty of these systems is you are heating or cooling at the ground water temp. My ground water temp is about 65* summer/winter. For my situation, think about being in your car. The outside temp is 65*, you turn on the AC. It is very easy for the AC to work efficently.
I have checked temp at my registers and with the unit on it runs 20-25 degrees different than ambient. (current room temp) I had an air to air heat pump and at about 40* outside I couldn't feel any difference in temp at the register and the unit ran continous.
That FHP website has a lot of install info if you want to check it out.

 

[PAGUY]

Am I wrong in my thinking but I thought you could pipe a geothermal straight down in the ground like a well and be a closed system? I was under the assumption that the deeper you bore into the ground the warmer the ground would be. I thought the ground temp had to be between 50° and 60° for geothermal units to work.

 

[Sigarms]

I've only done a handful of geothermals, so I'm far from an expert, but from what I've seen, as mentioned previously, geothermal is the way to go if done properly.

However...

I had an air to air heat pump and at about 40* outside I couldn't feel any difference in temp at the register and the unit ran continous.

Helped a buddy who is an HVAC contractor put a dual fuel system in his house this past winter, and so far, even when it was 30 F degrees outside, he still didn't need to run his gas furnace because his heat pump was keeping the interior at 74 F degrees no problem (R410A system, over 9.0 on the HSPF).

Numerous variables to consider as far as the interior conditions go.

 

[Richard]

The guy came to the house today, talked about needing to do some kind of load calculation (I'm sure I butchered the term).

Oh...I'm now leaning on closed loop however, the issue is where to put it.

He agreed that to put it to the left side of my house would be problematic, out behind it, problematic... so my options are limited but they do exist. It just depends on how difficult of digging I want to do, or how much more I want to spend I suppose.

I talked to my wifes cousin who lives next door. His compressor makes a TERRIBLE racket but is working properly. I'd speculate system is at least 20 years old. It dawned on me that it might be nearing the end of it's service and I know he's interested in a geothermal deal.

I mentioned what I might be doing and might hopefully use the field and if I did, it might make some sense to dig HIS cooling field at the same time as mine and he can just stub it out so if his unit does go down in 3 months or 2 years, he's got the hard part done and we don't have to dig the field up again.

Talking to wife...now it looks like we might simply swap out the upstairs unit also just to get rid of it and go 100% new.

Sigh... it's only money right?

Nice side benefit...her brother lost 100% in Katrina and is now in process of trying to rebuild his life down there on a permanant basis. He might be able to use the smaller heat pump or indeed, perhaps even fix the larger unit (needs compressor). He has SOME heating/cooling background and the tools whereas I have nothing. It would be nice to try to help him out some too. I can't fathom the concept of waking up one day with my life and waking up the next day with essentially the clothes on my back and a handful of belongings that were left in the car. (they had so many false scares on "serious" hurricans, they happened to leave all their prized posessions in the house this time)

I'm sure I'lll have more questions on this setup so I'd like to say I appreciate everyones thoughts and patience with me.

 

[Richard]

Addition: the reason I'm leaning on a closed loop is simply, I abhor the idea of pumping out say, 2,500 gallons water per day, ever day of the year forever more. Dumping said water into ditch and adding cycles to my well pump which is already say, 10 years old.

A closed system simply seems the "right" way of doing it.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

climatemaster tranquility is a very good unit. It and the waterfurnace envision are probably the 2 most popular two speed units out there. However there are other good units. Obviously with any system, the install is what makes it a good system. The price you are getting is also very very good, you can't beat it.
I've been quoted double that for the same unit, horizontal closed loop.

There are different piping layouts. You will need one loop per ton of unit. The length of the loop depends on piping layout, depth, pipe size, soil type, location, etc... The designer will use software to determine the lengths. I would recommend 6 to 8 feet deep for horizontal, but the depth is included in the length sizing, so it wouldn't matter if properly designed. The unit itself is sized by a manual J calculation. This will determine the heat and cooling load of the house.

If you have a large enough pond, it's best for a closed loop system. Put the closed loop in the bottom of the pond.
For a pump and dump, I know some people pump from one well and dump into another. I'm not familiar with dumping into the same well.