HVAC II, which one?

Richard · Jun 2, 2009

If you are new to this thread, I had a compressor fail. The repair guy who came out says it's dead and needs replaced. He evidently sells Amana. I've not read the fine print of the warranty but it says in the larger print "Lifetime Limited Unit Replacement Warranty" I'm sure there are going to be several fine print disclaimers... but the unit I DID have (Coleman) only had a 1 year as I recall.

So... here's what he's coming up with: (also, I might butcher part of it and since I'm a dummy on this stuff, I ask in advance you give me a little leeway for not knowing the terminology or things like that)

1. Standard Amana heat pump, 13 Seer, about $3,500 installed. This unit doesn't qualfiy for any tax credits

2. 15 Seer Amana $4,636 with a 15% tax credit ($695) so net cost would be $3,942 or only $442 more than standard unit (seems like no brainer to me)

3. 15 Seer Amana as above with propane backup! I stumbled onto the propane idea and we discussed it. Some pros/cons to the propane (I'd need to add a tank) This unit before propane expenses is $5,668 with 15% tax credit ($850) so it would be $4,818 or $1,318 more than the basic above but with propane heat and not electric (I personally like that idea other than NOT having a current propane tank)

I'd said I live in boonies near lake....he asked if I had a well...yes I do, a gusher well.

He said I should look into a water source system (geothermal). I think I'd use what you might call an open circuit? I'd tap into my water source, use it but then, need to discharge the water somewhere (which currently is a vexing problem) He sent me to www.climatemaster.com and told me to look at the Tranquility system(s).

This geothermal system would be "about" the price of the other...he said he'd have to call but felt $6,000 would be an ok discussion number (I rounded the highest earlier price up so I came up with 6K)

He went on to say, geothermal units are NOT liminted at $1,500 credit but you can get 30% credit on entire amount. So, 30% credit of $6,000 is $1,800 or a net price of $4,200...only $700 more than the base unit price.

I have never heard of this type system... they talked about its virtues for 20 minutes.

Tidbits on my well: flow rate is 100 gallons. I have about about 30 GPM available to me inside the house, after my pressure tank. My main issue here would be where to discharge the water after use? I asked if it could go back into my well and he was iffy on that.

Could it go back into the well? THAT would be the perfect answer since it will otherwise create some continual water movement issues. I could even put some extra long pipes so it's discharged DOWN in the well (say 100 feet) under the waterline or maybe just above it. This way, it woudn't wash 100' down the well casing.

he was concerned about warming my well... I don't know anything about that but if my well has a total depth of 310 feet, pump intake is at 220 feet and my static level is 104 feet with a GPM of 100.... it simply seems to me that my well would have less of an issue on warming than perhaps a lower flow well??? I think my casing is 6" if that also helps.

I just looked at my well data for above and see it has a 3/4 HP pump yielding 10 GPM which I find interesting since I measured more.

Ok...

General thoughts on Amana?

General thoughts on geothermal?

General thoughts on Propane backup?

General thoughts...no, any SPECIFIC thoughts on recycling the discharge water back into my well?? He said some people use discharge for watering, ponds... and they have a manifold where they can select the new discharge location. I suppose I could do that if the discharge to the well is only "iffy" instead of good/bad.

(did all that make sense?)

Thanks for any thoughts!!

Stimw · Jun 2, 2009

I'm on my second home with Geothermal Heat Pump. I have installed both myself including putting in the wells for them. I put the first in my last house in 1980 and sold the house in 1999 with it still working great.
I put my current one in two years ago. FHP Manufacturing - Water Source and Geo-Thermal Heat Pumps They are self contained, add water, electric and duct it to the current duct system.
This one, a 3 ton is rated at 21 amps with a 19.9 EER on cooling, 4.2 COP on heat with 65* water. I took out a 4 ton air to air rated at 60 amps.
I would not use the well for discharge, there would always be a chance for contamination. I can discharge to water my grass or put it into a drainage ditch.

Richard · Jun 2, 2009

Stim, I'm taking your response as an affirmation towards using the geothermal system??!!!

Tis what I was wanting to hear, thanks!

Willl · Jun 2, 2009

As I said before, installation will trump all brands.

buckeyefarmer · Jun 2, 2009

If you can get a tranquility installed for 6K, I'd jump on it. In my neck of the woods quotes for that unit are more like $20k installed. With your kind of well, a pump and dump should work, once you figure out the best way to get rid of the water. Some will drill another well to dump into. Geo saves in the long run on the usage costs.

However, those are good prices for heat pumps.

Sigarms · Jun 3, 2009

My vote goes for Geothermal.

Personally, and something I always suggest, is to take your time and to get at least three quotes, if for anything else, to "compare" the people giving you quote and how you feel about them (not just to get the best price).

This geothermal system would be "about" the price of the other...he said he'd have to call but felt $6,000 would be an ok discussion number (I rounded the highest earlier price up so I came up with 6K)

I'd be all over a 6k instal for a geothermal system like flies on cow manure

2. 15 Seer Amana $4,636 with a 15% tax credit ($695) so net cost would be $3,942 or only $442 more than standard unit (seems like no brainer to me)

3. 15 Seer Amana as above with propane backup! I stumbled onto the propane idea and we discussed it. Some pros/cons to the propane (I'd need to add a tank) This unit before propane expenses is $5,668 with 15% tax credit ($850) so it would be $4,818 or $1,318 more than the basic above but with propane heat and not electric (I personally like that idea other than NOT having a current propane tank)

If the contractor givig you the tax credit info is the same one giving you a 6k quote for a new geothermal instal, it's starting to make sense.

For systems other than geothermal, it's 30% of the total instal cost, not to exceed $5,000. Your numbers are off per what you think your tax credit would be.

As I said before, installation will trump all brands

Very true, but some brands do have nicer features than others, and some can be a service tech's nightmare.

Richard · Jun 3, 2009

Sigarms said:
For systems other than geothermal, it's 30% of the total instal cost, not to exceed $5,000. Your numbers are off per what you think your tax credit would be.

Ahh.. yes... I see. I was overwhelmed with numbers and was thinking of it being a $1,500 credit, (which is somehow, how I jumped to 15%)

30% of $5K would be $1,500

sigh...

Regardless... let me toss another thought out.

Evidently you can also have a closed loop system?

Are those significantly more? Here's why I ask.

My current yard would not allow me the space to have one, with the woods and then the property lines.

However... I might be able to work out a deal with father in law regarding the field in front of my house. Everyone wants that field to stay as is however, since it's titled to the farm and not to a house, if they sell the farm, the field is gone.

If I buy that field from him I would have a large area to place an underground system and work it back to my house.

If this happens (which if I were to be honest, is probably doubtful but I'm exploring all options right now)

Anyways, if this happened, could I then drive a large tractor on this field? Would I be relegated to a riding mower?

How about my full sized industrial JCB loader/backhoe?

Would they let me trench it myself since I've got the hoe?

The event of this a/c unit going out on me has really caused a ton of questions. Yesterday, I didn't know what a geothermal unit was and would have said NO WAY could I use a closed system... today, I see the (remote) possiblity of using a closed system.

If a closed system were to be installed, would I use say, a 3/4" line from house to field or a 2", 4"?? Along the way, because of current logistics, the pipe would HAVE to cross the path of my power line from the power company (buried). Is that an issue or could I dig below that line and take line under it?

Because of the way the power line circles my yard, there is really ZERO chance of getting to the other side without crossing it or pulling it above ground (the power line) which I don't see happening.

Is that a deal killer on its own?

Richard · Jun 3, 2009

Here's a picture of the field in front of my house. View of field and house and then a turn to the left to see more of the field. I might add that my power line is buried right in the middle of the gravel road to the house. Furthermore, from the transformer (which you can't see but is a bit left of the driveway) to the house, the wire is buried and travels FURTHER to the left going all the way around my yard (around the septic field) and to the meter box.

Any water would have to travel out of my garage which is on the right side of the house, so there is no way I can get to the field without taking a water line over the power line.

JeremyL · Jun 3, 2009

I'm also doing some research on replacing my A/C. I found this:

"We found more criticism and complaints about Goodman (makers of the Goodman, Janitrol and Amana brands) than any other brand. In spite of that, most contractors maintain that the problem is not with Goodman products, which are sometimes less expensive, but with faulty installation. These pros say that other manufacturers, such as Trane and Bryant, establish stringent requirements for technicians who install their equipment, while Goodman will let anyone install one of their air conditioners. When these pros repair Goodman units, they often find that the problem is not defective or short-lived parts. If you buy a Goodman air conditioner from a skilled contractor, they say it will be as reliable as any other brand."

It is from: Central Air Conditioners Reviews

2manyrocks · Jun 3, 2009

You don't have to buy the field. You could get a written easement to use it to bury your lines and then have it state what can and can't be done on the field that might tear up your lines. However, the most certain way to control the use of the field is for you to buy it so you control its use.

Other option is to dig a deep well and run your lines vertically on your own site. But I think you'll run into the same question of contamination of your well water. I think you're going to have to research that more before deciding whether to use your existing well or dig another one or go out in the field. If the system just uses water with no additives, then that's one thing, but you don't want to discharge any additives into your well. Could you add a filtration system to your potable water lines and still discharge in your existing well?

I thought you had to take the line under an electric line, but I think there may be some code issues you'll want to sort out.

Chuck52 · Jun 4, 2009

Aren't you also going to need to go down at least six feet for a closed loop system? That's not a trivial dig, for a few hundred feet. I've also never heard of a pump-and-dump system using a single well. I've thought about doing a pump-and-dump since I have two unused wells on my place, but the other major problem with any system that uses well water rather than a closed loop is water quality. The water from my wells is probably very hard, and I understand that can cause problems. Do you have to soften your water before use? I assume you'd bypass that for the water to the heat pump, but then you might have problems with scale build up on the heat exchanger. BTW, does anyone know what kind of volume of water we're talking about? If you made a pond, how big would it have to be?

Chuck

Richard · Jun 4, 2009

Chuck52 said:
Aren't you also going to need to go down at least six feet for a closed loop system? That's not a trivial dig, for a few hundred feet. I've also never heard of a pump-and-dump system using a single well. I've thought about doing a pump-and-dump since I have two unused wells on my place, but the other major problem with any system that uses well water rather than a closed loop is water quality. The water from my wells is probably very hard, and I understand that can cause problems. Do you have to soften your water before use? I assume you'd bypass that for the water to the heat pump, but then you might have problems with scale build up on the heat exchanger. BTW, does anyone know what kind of volume of water we're talking about? If you made a pond, how big would it have to be?

Chuck

Chuck, you're right. I just talked to the guy. I would need about 600' of line, buried at 6' of depth (he's guessing on the 600 based on current unit size, he's coming out tomorrow to see the place)

Since I have a backhoe that will dig to 15' depth, hitting 6 will not be a problem. He said I could dig it as it would save me some money and them some effort. He ALSO said I could install a pump/dump system today and later on (after budget recovers), convert it to a closed loop. We would only need to divert the water flow from the dump to the loop.

I did not think about an easement!! excellent idea!!! VERY excellent idea!!

Also...talking to the guy today, I said my field might be 100' away from the house. If I need 600' buried, would I need 100' to the field, 600' in the field and then 100' back to the house OR would the 100' from the house to the field knock off 200' and I'd only need 400' in the field.

Seems I would need 600' total so the distance to/from the field would serve to lower the amount in the field... HOWEVER, when I told him about the electric lines, buried at 3 or 4' down he speculated I'd have to go above them (verses below) and that section could not count towards the 600' since it would not be 6' deep.

He guessed that the incremental cost from the pump/dump to a closed loop system (me doing the digging & backfilling) would be about $2,500 upcharge. By the way, the speculated price for a Climatemaster TSV-030 (Tranquility 27 series) was $6,000. He corrected that today saying it would be about $6,682 as a pump/dump install and if I added the closed loop, it would then go to about $9,182 with me doing the digging and backfilling.

Richard · Jun 4, 2009

By the way, can anyone share an opinion as to if Climate Master is well built/designed, junk or as has been said..."depends on the install"??

The more I'm reading about this geothermal stuff...the more inclined I am to go this avenue. Even with an install price of $9,200, I will evidently get a 30% tax credit ($2,760) come tax season, so the net cost would be $6,440 for something I'm reading should provide at minimum, equal comfort at a much reduced operating cost to me on an annual basis.

I can live with that.

I also read something where someone was complaining on not getting good results BUT that their system was buried 4' down. They went on to say that various soil types or various depths might affect the efficiency of the system. This brought up a question to me...

This guy is telling me it should be 6' down. Since I can dig down to 15', would there be any benefit to put it down, say 10'? 12'?

Also... if I may... my backhoe bucket is a 2' bucket. Would I need a 2' trench for the line out and line back or, could I lay two lines side by side in the 2' trench? Just how close can the lines be to each other?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions and I expect the guy tomorrow will answer many of them. I'm always dubious on taking everything a salesman has to say at face value since in fact, he's trying to sell me something (which isn't to say he's not being honest/accurate, I just like to independently find out on my own)

Richard · Jun 4, 2009

I'd like to specifically ask again for other opinions...

COULD this be dumped back into my well?

Again, here are my well tidbits:

GPM 100
Total depth 310 feet
Intake at 220 feet
Static level 104 feet
6" casing
3/4 horse pump

Could I plan for a pump/dump system and use my well water. Take the "used" water, tap a hole back into my well casing (he said he's done this before) and add some pipe inside the well so the actual discharge of water, is at say, 290 feet. This puts it below my intake and (hopefully) with 100 gmp flowing around down there, that would in effect, "wash" this discharge water away since it's also below my casing.

He told me the pump/dump would be (ever so slightly) more efficient than the closed loop, it would be less expensive too however, my real problem is the discharge water.

Let me rephrase part of my question... would putting this discharge back into my well, potentially HURT anything?

IN other words, if I tried it and one year from now, simply didn't like it, I could then redirect it to either dump elsewhere or I could then install the closed loop part.

If I could put it back into my well then that alone would keep things VERY nice & tidy regarding this whole ordeal.

Thoughts??

I'd like to repeat, I DO appreciate everyones input!

Stimw · Jun 4, 2009

My 3 ton unit recommends just under 9 gpm. I have used a 1/2 hp pump on both that I have installed.
It should be standard the the units come with a Coppro-Nickel coil for the water to go through. This coil holds up best to hard water.
Maybe you could put a loop in your well for the closed loop. You have 600' down and back. I just would not be comfortable using my drinking well for the heat pump.
Another possibility would be to dig 10' X300', put down the pipe, backfill 3-4' and run the pipe back to the house and total back fill. It would be half the digging. You could even reverse the loop for heat or cool. The bottom pipe would be a little warner or cooler depending on the cycle.
The beauty of these systems is you are heating or cooling at the ground water temp. My ground water temp is about 65* summer/winter. For my situation, think about being in your car. The outside temp is 65*, you turn on the AC. It is very easy for the AC to work efficently.
I have checked temp at my registers and with the unit on it runs 20-25 degrees different than ambient. (current room temp) I had an air to air heat pump and at about 40* outside I couldn't feel any difference in temp at the register and the unit ran continous.
That FHP website has a lot of install info if you want to check it out.

PAGUY · Jun 4, 2009

Am I wrong in my thinking but I thought you could pipe a geothermal straight down in the ground like a well and be a closed system? I was under the assumption that the deeper you bore into the ground the warmer the ground would be. I thought the ground temp had to be between 50° and 60° for geothermal units to work.

Sigarms · Jun 4, 2009

I've only done a handful of geothermals, so I'm far from an expert, but from what I've seen, as mentioned previously, geothermal is the way to go if done properly.

However...

I had an air to air heat pump and at about 40* outside I couldn't feel any difference in temp at the register and the unit ran continous.

Helped a buddy who is an HVAC contractor put a dual fuel system in his house this past winter, and so far, even when it was 30 F degrees outside, he still didn't need to run his gas furnace because his heat pump was keeping the interior at 74 F degrees no problem (R410A system, over 9.0 on the HSPF).

Numerous variables to consider as far as the interior conditions go.

Richard · Jun 4, 2009

The guy came to the house today, talked about needing to do some kind of load calculation (I'm sure I butchered the term).

Oh...I'm now leaning on closed loop however, the issue is where to put it.

He agreed that to put it to the left side of my house would be problematic, out behind it, problematic... so my options are limited but they do exist. It just depends on how difficult of digging I want to do, or how much more I want to spend I suppose.

I talked to my wifes cousin who lives next door. His compressor makes a TERRIBLE racket but is working properly. I'd speculate system is at least 20 years old. It dawned on me that it might be nearing the end of it's service and I know he's interested in a geothermal deal.

I mentioned what I might be doing and might hopefully use the field and if I did, it might make some sense to dig HIS cooling field at the same time as mine and he can just stub it out so if his unit does go down in 3 months or 2 years, he's got the hard part done and we don't have to dig the field up again.

Talking to wife...now it looks like we might simply swap out the upstairs unit also just to get rid of it and go 100% new.

Sigh... it's only money right?

Nice side benefit...her brother lost 100% in Katrina and is now in process of trying to rebuild his life down there on a permanant basis. He might be able to use the smaller heat pump or indeed, perhaps even fix the larger unit (needs compressor). He has SOME heating/cooling background and the tools whereas I have nothing. It would be nice to try to help him out some too. I can't fathom the concept of waking up one day with my life and waking up the next day with essentially the clothes on my back and a handful of belongings that were left in the car. (they had so many false scares on "serious" hurricans, they happened to leave all their prized posessions in the house this time)

I'm sure I'lll have more questions on this setup so I'd like to say I appreciate everyones thoughts and patience with me.

Richard · Jun 4, 2009

Addition: the reason I'm leaning on a closed loop is simply, I abhor the idea of pumping out say, 2,500 gallons water per day, ever day of the year forever more. Dumping said water into ditch and adding cycles to my well pump which is already say, 10 years old.

A closed system simply seems the "right" way of doing it.

buckeyefarmer · Jun 4, 2009

climatemaster tranquility is a very good unit. It and the waterfurnace envision are probably the 2 most popular two speed units out there. However there are other good units. Obviously with any system, the install is what makes it a good system. The price you are getting is also very very good, you can't beat it.
I've been quoted double that for the same unit, horizontal closed loop.

There are different piping layouts. You will need one loop per ton of unit. The length of the loop depends on piping layout, depth, pipe size, soil type, location, etc... The designer will use software to determine the lengths. I would recommend 6 to 8 feet deep for horizontal, but the depth is included in the length sizing, so it wouldn't matter if properly designed. The unit itself is sized by a manual J calculation. This will determine the heat and cooling load of the house.

If you have a large enough pond, it's best for a closed loop system. Put the closed loop in the bottom of the pond.
For a pump and dump, I know some people pump from one well and dump into another. I'm not familiar with dumping into the same well.