Hydraulic Tip 'N Tilt

[Bird]

Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Time to revisit an old topic. A long time ago, this topic was discussed at some length and I had decided that I really only wanted a single spool valve and hydraulic top link. Well, I changed my mind and want a hydraulic top link and the lower left link to have both tip and tilt.

I had understood earlier that the way to go on the B2710 was to run a hydraulic hose from the power beyond port on the loader valve to the inlet of the new valve. However, the LA401 loader valve has the outlet (return line) to a fitting on the tank, then there is a hydraulic block with a pump port and line going to the inlet on the loader valve. The power beyond port on the valve also has a hose going back to the power beyond port on the hydraulic block (and that is the way the oil gets to the 3-point). So I'm not sure how you could use the power beyond port on the loader valve to get to another valve and then have the power beyond port on it going back to the hydraulic block . . ., and then you'd still have to get a return line from the outlet port on the second valve to somewhere?

Anyway, I still don't have the tip and tilt, both because of trying to save on money, and because I haven't figured out exactly where to mount something as big as a two spool valve, and because I couldn't figure any good way to route hoses from the loader valve to a second valve.

I had asked my Kubota salesman whether Kubota had a complete tip and tilt kit and he had told me they do for some of the bigger tractors, but not the B2710. I have since discovered, from my workshop and parts manual, that Kubota has an "optional" rear hydraulic outlet kit (block, two O-rings, two bolts, and an instruction manual) that bolts onto the right side of the tractor towards the rear; costs $68 and some change.

So . . ., is anyone familiar with this? Sure seems to me that this kit would be the way to go for rear hydraulic outlets, wouldn't it? And has anyone else done it? It appears to me that I would need an open center valve, but would not need power beyond on it.

You might say I'm "hydraulically challenged" but it would probably be more accurate to say I'm plumb handicapped. Help me with some comments.

Bird

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Don't have a Kubota, but I do have a JD 790 that I added the rear hydraulic outlet. There kit replaces the line from the power beyond on the loader valve to the 3 point with a line to rear with a hose with quick disconnects that feeds a line to the 3 Point. To tap the source, you disconnect the line and put a valve in series, with the output connected to the return side of the disconnect. Sounds simular to what the Kubota kit will allow you to do.

Anyway, I added tip and double tilt by using a 3 spool valve in the circuit, and three 2 inch cyclinders modified with swivel ends instead of eye or clevis. Only downside is it takes a bunch of hoses. Had a problem with where to mount the valve, didn't want to drill holes and there is not much available space on JD 790, so I made a pedistal for them on the right side of the tractor ahead of the brake petals (about where Kubota mounts their valves for FEL. Not ideal place when trying to watch a rear implement and making adjustments. But would be great for 4 in 1 bucket or front mount attachment.

Double tilt is neat because I get a heap of tilt with 8 inch travel on each side link (have to make sure the tool and arms don't bind.

Purchased the valve and cyclinders at Surplus Center in Lincoln, NE. and hoses locally.

 

[MarkV]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Well Bird, if you are "hydrauliclly handicapped" I guess I am in good company. I sure will read this post with interest as the experts share their information. The only thing I can offer is that the tip and tilt is offered by Kubota for the B21 and these are similar tractor. The B21 already has hydraulics to the rear for the backhoe but once you get a feed you might see if this kit would work. Just a thought.

MarkV

 

[mdbarb]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

What is a "tip and Tilt"
and I do I really really need one but just don't know it yet?

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Tip - when you have a hydraulic cyclinder in place of your 3 point top link, tip permits easy adjustments that you would get from adjusting your top link. Great for box blades when you are trying to use it in both directions.

Tilt - when you have a hydraulic cyclinder in place of an adjustable side link between your upper 3 point arm and your lower three point arm (of if you are like me replace both left and right arms). This allows you to adjust implements up or down on left or right side. Great for ditching or sloping a bank.

Hope this helps.

 

[JATO_RaT]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Bird, coincidentaly, I'm getting ready to add top and tilt to my old International 454. I've been considering a double tilt set of cylinders, I've used them before and there are definitely some great advantages like extra tilt and greater ability to tilt to either side, particularly helpful on long roads where your making a trench or ditch on one side of the road and don't want to travel all the back to the begining since you can just turn around and tilt the other way. That however is of less importance then the top (tip) and just being able to tilt on demand. I will have at least 3 valves, top, tilt and one for the hydraulic rippers. Idealy 4 will be best. I have easily figured out how to tie it in to the existing, but I am sure that it is different on yours and going to your dealer may be a huge bonus. I would like to know from any of the folks responding here where I can get via mail order some Gannon cylinders and valves, I like the quality of the Gannon componets. I am also considering a set of Michelin 17.9 24's for the rear of this tractor as MChalkley is very impressed by their performance, good luck should you add this, it is the best way to go, once you have TNT you will wonder why it took so long to get it. Rat...

 

[RMulkey]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Here is a picture of the Gannon Top and Tilt setup. The top Link and Right side link have been replaced with Hydraulic 4" cylinders to control angle of implements on the 3PH. The 3 spool valves are mounted on the right fender. The third valve is to control the hydraulic scarifier teeth on the box scraper. Hope this helps.

 

[Bird]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Looks like a nice set-up for that L4310, but I surely would not want anything as big as 4" cylinders for a B2710, and of course, my main concerns are the source for the hydraulic power from the tractor, and finding a two spool valve that's as small as possible to mount on the tractor where it's not in the way.

Bird

 

[gordon]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Bird the block that your talking about I believe is where both your supply and return hoses tie into. If it's what I'm thinking about then you will just need an open center spool valve where the two hoses would tie into. Then just plumb in the cylinders and your up town.

So from side tap on the tractor--a hose runs up to the spool valve in port and then a hose from the out side of the valve back to the side tap of the tractor. Then on each spool of the valve an up hose and a down hose going to the cylinder.----simple as can be/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Gordon

 

[Bird]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Gordon, that's what I'm thinking, too. I was just hoping someone had done this on a B2710 (or B2910 which of course I'm only guessing is the same). I haven't seen one of these optional rear hydraulic outlet blocks, but can't imagine what it would be for except that. The other thing I'm unsure of is which valve I would need. I would like for it to be as small and light weight as possible, but of course it has to be adequate for the amount of flow. I've noticed a lot of valves are rated for 20 to 30 gpm, but the tractor has dual pumps with a total output of 9.5 gpm (6.4 for the 3-point and 3.1 for the power steering). I haven't seen any valves with the lower flow rating although one company I talked to said they had a smaller, cheaper two spool valve rated for 6 gpm. Would that work? Or do I really need one that's rated higher?

Bird

 

[Gerald]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Bird,
I read the posts here every day, most of
the time I don't feel I have much to add, but
maybe this time I do.
This is a good place to put the valve,(pic).
When I turn around to watch the blade or
whatever is attached, it's in just the right place.
The valve I used has three hoses, in, out (return),
and back to tank.
I also have a loader, the rear hyd. can be
used with or without the loader by changing
where I plug the quick couplings.
The way I see it, open center is fluid being pumped
all the time back to the 3 point lift and if it is not
being used it's just dumped, (back to tank).
The valves we use simply tap the line (pressure) before
it gets to the 3 pt. lift. But the valve we use has to
be able pass the pressure on to the lift or the next
valve , (Power Beyond) , to get rid of low pressure fluid
it has a "return to tank" port, by the way it can be on a
Tee with the loader or "return to tank" hoses.
Someone tell me if I am wrong here, "The tractor's
hydraulics are open center, "power beyond" is the kind
of valve that is used".
This is the second hyd. top link I have added to a Kubota,
on this one I used a two spool valve so I can use the second
cyl. for "tilt", or anything else I can dream up. The top link is
a $60.00 Chief cyl. I welded the ends on, works as good or better
than the one that cost $150.00.I think I saw the valve I used
in the last northern tools Cat. Think it was about $140.00
and the power beyond plug to go with it about $14.00.
Hoses can be had for a lot less than the auto parts stores
sell them for. Type in "Hydraulic hoses" at a Yahoo search.
Did I help or confuse you more?
Gerald

 

[gordon]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Well Bird I have seen it done. I saw it installed on a repo tractor at the dealership. They had plumbed in a two spool valve with the block on the side of the tractor. I tried to get the valves and hoses off the tractor from the dealer and he said he couldn't do anything yet until Kubota got back to him on it. But with my dealer it pays to wait at times.

Now about flow of the valve that is something that I'm not sure of which way you would be better off with. But you've got me thinking and thats good. Where is Mark when you need him.

Ok the larger flow valve should have larger ports both for in out and also on the spools??? The lower gpm valve would have smaller ports??? Sounds logical to me anyway. So what does this mean. if you have a lower flow going into a larger opening the cylinder would operate slower==or only a small difference in operation==I'm guessing at the above. So lets get someone here to clue both of us in on the large valve small valve./w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Gordon

 

[TomG]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

I figured I'd run the outlet hose from my loader valves to the inlet of new valve assembly mounted on the fender, and splice the outlet hose from the new valves back to the original return hose. It seems like a simple approach (just the sort of thing I'm limited to at present). However, there may be better approaches that I won't know about until I've studied on this a bit. For all I know, hooking additional valve assemblies in open centre lines create looses through friction etc. There were some hydraulics books mentioned on CTB, as well as a site (www.infotec.com).

As an alternative, additional control sections for my loader valves may be available. I think that adding control valve sections is fairly easy, but would require welding a larger pedestal on the mounting pipe. However, I can see myself ending up with a festoon of hoses running beside the seat. I think I like the idea of placing control valves for the rear hydraulics behind the seat.

Anyway, the idea of doing hydraulics plumbing the middle of winter doesn't appeal. I think I'll study rather than do.

 

[Bird]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Gerald, that looks pretty good; I'll have to check to see whether there's enough room behind the seat on my B model to do something similar.

Bird

 

[Bird]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

<font color=blue>Re: the idea of doing hydraulics plumbing the middle of winter doesn't appeal</font color=blue>

TomG, with a "normal" temperature range of 38 to 59 this time of year, it isn't too bad working outside, but some of those New Englanders have used the old quote to the effect "if you don't like the weather, just wait a little bit and it'll change." Well, yesterday morning when I got up it was 62 degrees and calm; this morning 18 with a north wind./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif I'll keep the coffee pot going and don't think I'll open the door today any longer than it takes to let the dog out occasionally.

Bird

 

[MChalkley]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Bird - I've never done this on a B-series (but you knew that...), so I can't comment specifically on where to plumb it in. You should have an unused PB port on either the hydraulic distribution block (the one with the valve you turn off when you remove the loader), or your loader valve. If you use the one on the loader valve, though, you can't take the loader off anymore, so that's out.

The return fluid just gets tee'ed back into the same return line that the loader return flow goes to.

As for flow, the valves only need to handle a very small amount, 1 or 2 gpm, if you're sure you're using a PB port. If you plumb the valve in series into the regular hydraulic circuit, it has to be able to handle the entire flow of your hydraulic pump.

The rear cylinders need very little flow. In fact, they're a lot easier to use if you don't have much flow. I put flow restrictors in both ends of every cylinder to make them easier to fine tune - plus it keeps most of the shock in the cylinders and out of the valves.

Did this help? I'm out of town again and didn't read the whole thread real thoroughly, so ask again if I missed anything that I'm able to answer. (I did catch Gordon's comment, though - smart-alec!)

MarkC

 

[Bird]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Mark, I don't have any valve to turn off when I remove the loader (the loader valve stays on the tractor). And while I assume I could use the PB port from the loader valve to a second valve, sure would have a lot of hoses in the way. So I'm reasonably sure that optional rear hydraulic block kit has to be for that purpose and would certainly be a much neater installation, if so. And I know I don't need much flow to the tip 'n tilt cylinders, but guess I have to have one that handles the entire flow from the pump through the open center. I was in a hydraulics place quite awhile ago and the salesman showed me an ungodly high priced super duper quality (supposedly) two spool valve that was also unbelievably big and heavy. When I asked about something smaller and lighter, he said the only thing he had was one that was only rated for 6 gpm flow (I didn't see it and don't know if there would be a problem with using it). This is one of those jobs I want to be sure and get right the first time; sure don't want to experiment and have to re-do it later.

Another thing is that I understand some folks have replaced the right lower link with a hydraulic one. The right side is the one with the manual adjustment, so it seems to me that the hydraulic link should go on the left side and I'd seldom, if ever, re-adjust the manual one on the right, but would have that option available if I ever did want a really extreme tip. I don't want to have to use one of those gigantic valves (3-spool) to have hydraulics on both sides like you do.

Bird

 

[Harv]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Bird -

I'm following this thread with great interest, as top 'n' tilt has percolated its way to the top of my own wish list.

My usual frustration -- being over a hundred miles from my L2500 most of the time. Makes it hard to run out and look at the hydraulic fittings or whatever.

The dealer from whence my tractor came talked me out of buying a shop manual for my machine, claiming it's only useful if you want to rebuild the engine, and then it wouldn't be good enough. Since it was yet another expense I was ill prepared for, I settled for the standard owner's manual and I bought the parts list 'cuz it was relatively cheap.

So question #1 is, is the shop manual any good? I am getting ready to change the fluids, and the owner's manual just says, "drain the old stuff and put in new stuff". I need considerably more detail for things like that and certainly for tinkering with the hydraulics.

Also, being even more "hydraulically-challenged" than you are, can you (or anyone else out there) recommend some reading material to bring me up to speed? "Hydraulics for Dummies" would be about my level. If there's something that teaches tractor hydraulics specifically, so much the better.

Here I am at 52, going back to school. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

 

[Bird]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

Harv, it's a little hard to say whether the "Workshop Manual" (as Kubota calls them) is worth the cost for you. You may be one of those who's pretty good at just figuring it out, like my youngest brother, but I'm one of those who don't much like trial and error and trying to figure things out if I can just read the instructions instead. So for me, I figure the $88 I had to pay for the Workshop Manual was worth it. And oddly enough for me, I forgot to even ask my dealer about those manuals when I bought the tractor, so I just ordered them from Carver and got them delivered right to my door.

Bird

 

[dullpain]

Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt

All - I am following this with extreme interest. I have decided to add hyd. top link * but * this makes me think hard about holding off and see what develops. That hyd. tilt sure would be nice as well.

You might try " www.baileynet.com " they have Hyd. Top Links, Cylinders galore, pumps, valves, pieces and parts. I received there caltlog yesterday. It takes awhile to get the catalog if you order. GOOD LUCK.