HalseyGreen
Silver Member
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
RobS. - Yes, one and the same kit.
RobS. - Yes, one and the same kit.
Hydraulic Tip 'N Tilt
- Thread starter Bird
- Start date
- Views: 30562
OP
Bird
Rest in Peace
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
RobertN, that's just one of the problems I have; all the valves I've seen were so darned big. But now LarryT (who lives in California; don't know how far from you) has posted pictures of exactly what I want. I still have a couple of questions that I'm hoping he'll answer, and I'm trying to talk a dealer in another part of the country into putting a "kit" together like that. And I'm betting he'll come up with something, but if not, I'm going to have to find out who LarryT's dealer is and contact them. Got to have that tip 'n tilt before warm weather gets here.
Bird
RobertN, that's just one of the problems I have; all the valves I've seen were so darned big. But now LarryT (who lives in California; don't know how far from you) has posted pictures of exactly what I want. I still have a couple of questions that I'm hoping he'll answer, and I'm trying to talk a dealer in another part of the country into putting a "kit" together like that. And I'm betting he'll come up with something, but if not, I'm going to have to find out who LarryT's dealer is and contact them. Got to have that tip 'n tilt before warm weather gets here.
Bird
OP
Bird
Rest in Peace
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
Harv, I don't know whether all the Kubotas have the extra port. This is another case of the workshop manual showing there to be an optional hydraulic block, but no mention of where. But the parts manual exploded view shows about where; on the right side, below the seat. It has a diamond shaped or square "cap" with an O-Ring and held on by two bolts that can be removed and replaced by the hydraulic outlet kit.
And yep, I'm learning a lot from the forum, Harv. Gerald has a nice set-up on his tractor, but it's an "L" series and it looks like LarryT has exactly what I've been looking for.
Bird
Harv, I don't know whether all the Kubotas have the extra port. This is another case of the workshop manual showing there to be an optional hydraulic block, but no mention of where. But the parts manual exploded view shows about where; on the right side, below the seat. It has a diamond shaped or square "cap" with an O-Ring and held on by two bolts that can be removed and replaced by the hydraulic outlet kit.
And yep, I'm learning a lot from the forum, Harv. Gerald has a nice set-up on his tractor, but it's an "L" series and it looks like LarryT has exactly what I've been looking for.
Bird
gordon
Veteran Member
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
Mark comment me uh oh well ummm actually it was a complement why you ask? With as much as you've played with your tractors hydraulics who better to ask! Now to a point that noone has brought up yet. I don't want to confuse the issue here but it's better to do it right the first time. Yes it requires alittle more plumbing and forethought but the electric solinoid valves allow a single spool valve to do two functions. Or a dual spool valve to do four functions. I've already decided when I do the new tractor up I'm going with the solinoid valves. Might cost alittle more up front but it will add to the overall functions of the tractor and allow a smaller spool valve to be mounted. Most of the plumbing will be short runs from behind the seat to the cylinders. With a couple of main runs to the spool valve.
Just my thoughts
Gordon
Mark comment me uh oh well ummm actually it was a complement why you ask? With as much as you've played with your tractors hydraulics who better to ask! Now to a point that noone has brought up yet. I don't want to confuse the issue here but it's better to do it right the first time. Yes it requires alittle more plumbing and forethought but the electric solinoid valves allow a single spool valve to do two functions. Or a dual spool valve to do four functions. I've already decided when I do the new tractor up I'm going with the solinoid valves. Might cost alittle more up front but it will add to the overall functions of the tractor and allow a smaller spool valve to be mounted. Most of the plumbing will be short runs from behind the seat to the cylinders. With a couple of main runs to the spool valve.
Just my thoughts
Gordon
hayden
Elite Member
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2000
- Messages
- 2,719
- Location
- VT
- Tractor
- Kubota L5740 cab + FEL, KX121, KX080, Deere 6120M
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
OK, I can't resist this.
Here's the programmers translation for open center/power beyond verses closed center/no power beyond. Maybe this will help my fellow geeks.
fluid OpenCenter/PowerBeyond(fluid)
{
if (work_to_do)
{
do_useful_work(fluid)
}
return fluid
}
fluid goes in, does useful work if called for, and comes back out regardless of whether useful work was done.
In contrast:
fluid ClosedCenter/NoPowerBeyond(fluid)
{
while(!work_to_do)
{
}
do_useful_work(fluid)
return fluid
}
fluid goes in and sits there until there is something to do, only after which it comes out.
OpenCenter/PowerBeyond functions can be strung together in series and each can independently do useful work without blocking the guys downstream.
OK, I can't resist this.
Here's the programmers translation for open center/power beyond verses closed center/no power beyond. Maybe this will help my fellow geeks.
fluid OpenCenter/PowerBeyond(fluid)
{
if (work_to_do)
{
do_useful_work(fluid)
}
return fluid
}
fluid goes in, does useful work if called for, and comes back out regardless of whether useful work was done.
In contrast:
fluid ClosedCenter/NoPowerBeyond(fluid)
{
while(!work_to_do)
{
}
do_useful_work(fluid)
return fluid
}
fluid goes in and sits there until there is something to do, only after which it comes out.
OpenCenter/PowerBeyond functions can be strung together in series and each can independently do useful work without blocking the guys downstream.
LarryT
Silver Member
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
Ok, here's some more information as promised. First, I'm somewhat embarrased by how dirty my near new tractor is. I normally pressure wash it after a days work but I got back way after dark (that's about 5 PM these days!) then left town for two weeks. It will get a bath this weekend. Also, the dealer's brackets need better paint, but I'll deal with that too.
First, the hydraulic "source" is photo 1. The same source feeds the FEL and T&T valves. You can see the dual outlet plate in the photo, don't know if a dual plate is standard or not, you'll have to look at your tractor. For reference, the "bars" to the left in the photo are the two brake pedals.
The return from the T&T valve feeds into the FEL valve (left center photo 2). Apparently there are three spare return ports on this particular valve (see second one plugged to the right of the one mentioned). Then the return circuit is completed via the FEL valve back to the pump. The FEL valve is made by Husco, and the T&T valve is made by Dinoil http://www.internettrash.com/users/modular/dinoil.htm . Photo 3 is another angle of the added T&T valve. Photo 4 shows another angle of the rear cylinders. The rear cylinders are 1 3/8" outside diameter. The top link is 12" overall, the lower link is 7" overall. Working length would be about an inch less. The center shaft is 1" dia.
It's all pretty simple really. Seems like getting the hoses the correct length would be the hardest part. I have a call into my dealer to see if they will sell the kit and for how much. He was out today, I'll post when he gets back to me. If he's up to it, I'll post his name and # and you can contact him directly.
Hope this helps. Sorry for the length of this message. I've gotten so much great information from this site that I'm happy to be giving something back. Let me know if you have more questions.
Larry...
Ok, here's some more information as promised. First, I'm somewhat embarrased by how dirty my near new tractor is. I normally pressure wash it after a days work but I got back way after dark (that's about 5 PM these days!) then left town for two weeks. It will get a bath this weekend. Also, the dealer's brackets need better paint, but I'll deal with that too.
First, the hydraulic "source" is photo 1. The same source feeds the FEL and T&T valves. You can see the dual outlet plate in the photo, don't know if a dual plate is standard or not, you'll have to look at your tractor. For reference, the "bars" to the left in the photo are the two brake pedals.
The return from the T&T valve feeds into the FEL valve (left center photo 2). Apparently there are three spare return ports on this particular valve (see second one plugged to the right of the one mentioned). Then the return circuit is completed via the FEL valve back to the pump. The FEL valve is made by Husco, and the T&T valve is made by Dinoil http://www.internettrash.com/users/modular/dinoil.htm . Photo 3 is another angle of the added T&T valve. Photo 4 shows another angle of the rear cylinders. The rear cylinders are 1 3/8" outside diameter. The top link is 12" overall, the lower link is 7" overall. Working length would be about an inch less. The center shaft is 1" dia.
It's all pretty simple really. Seems like getting the hoses the correct length would be the hardest part. I have a call into my dealer to see if they will sell the kit and for how much. He was out today, I'll post when he gets back to me. If he's up to it, I'll post his name and # and you can contact him directly.
Hope this helps. Sorry for the length of this message. I've gotten so much great information from this site that I'm happy to be giving something back. Let me know if you have more questions.
Larry...
LarryT
Silver Member
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
I'm having trouble posting more than one image. I'll do the in separate emails. Here is photo 1.
Larry...
I'm having trouble posting more than one image. I'll do the in separate emails. Here is photo 1.
Larry...
LarryT
Silver Member
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
Photo 2, FEL valve.
Larry...
Photo 2, FEL valve.
Larry...
LarryT
Silver Member
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
Photo 3, T&T valve.
Larry...
Photo 3, T&T valve.
Larry...
LarryT
Silver Member
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
Photo 4, rear hydraulics, right side view.
Larry...
Photo 4, rear hydraulics, right side view.
Larry...
MChalkley
Elite Member
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2000
- Messages
- 3,198
- Location
- Eastern Virginia
- Tractor
- EarthForce EF-5 mini-TLB (2001)
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
Gordon - I agree completely. I've done this three different times on three different tractors, and I finally got it right this last time. Having the extra ports to control 2 rear implement cylinders in addition to the side link cylinders and top link cylinder is a real plus.
MarkC
Gordon - I agree completely. I've done this three different times on three different tractors, and I finally got it right this last time. Having the extra ports to control 2 rear implement cylinders in addition to the side link cylinders and top link cylinder is a real plus.
MarkC
OP
Bird
Rest in Peace
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
Larry,
When I looked at your first photos with the two hoses running down the inside of the fender from the T&T valve, I was guessing that they went to and from the "optional" hydraulic outlet on the right side of the tractor below the seat. However, you say, <font color=blue>"The same source feeds the FEL and T&T valves. You can see the dual outlet plate in the photo . .,"</font color=blue> So I may be a bit confused (not unusual for me/w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif). The top (or right) hose or fitting on that hydraulic block is the pump port (and goes to the inlet on the FEL valve on my tractor). Are you saying that hose goes to the inlet on the T&T valve, and then the outlet hose from the T&T valve goes to the inlet on your FEL valve? (Of course, the other - lower left - hose on the hydraulic block is connected to the power beyond port on the FEL valve (top of the valve left of the other 4 in the photo of your FEL valve).
I only see a total of 6 hoses on your T&T valve. Is that right? Inlet, outlet, and two hoses to each cylinder. No power beyond port? If that is the case, I don't quite understand how that valve works. It would seem to me that the T&T valve would have to be an open center, power beyond type to get the pressure to the FEL valve, and still have an outlet that was not pressurized.
Sometimes I think the more I study this, the more confused I get, but I definitely like what you've got there as long as everything works, and it obviously does.
Thanks for the information and photos, and yes, I would like the name and number of the dealer who installed that.
Bird
Larry,
When I looked at your first photos with the two hoses running down the inside of the fender from the T&T valve, I was guessing that they went to and from the "optional" hydraulic outlet on the right side of the tractor below the seat. However, you say, <font color=blue>"The same source feeds the FEL and T&T valves. You can see the dual outlet plate in the photo . .,"</font color=blue> So I may be a bit confused (not unusual for me/w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif). The top (or right) hose or fitting on that hydraulic block is the pump port (and goes to the inlet on the FEL valve on my tractor). Are you saying that hose goes to the inlet on the T&T valve, and then the outlet hose from the T&T valve goes to the inlet on your FEL valve? (Of course, the other - lower left - hose on the hydraulic block is connected to the power beyond port on the FEL valve (top of the valve left of the other 4 in the photo of your FEL valve).
I only see a total of 6 hoses on your T&T valve. Is that right? Inlet, outlet, and two hoses to each cylinder. No power beyond port? If that is the case, I don't quite understand how that valve works. It would seem to me that the T&T valve would have to be an open center, power beyond type to get the pressure to the FEL valve, and still have an outlet that was not pressurized.
Sometimes I think the more I study this, the more confused I get, but I definitely like what you've got there as long as everything works, and it obviously does.
Thanks for the information and photos, and yes, I would like the name and number of the dealer who installed that.
Bird
Harv
Elite Member
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2000
- Messages
- 3,346
- Tractor
- Kubota L2500DT Standard Transmission
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
Peter -
Thanks for putting it into a language I understand. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Does this work if your tractor is object oriented? /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Peter -
Thanks for putting it into a language I understand. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
Does this work if your tractor is object oriented? /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
LarryT
Silver Member
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
Bird, with flashlight in hand, I went for another look. Here's what I found which is a little different from my earlier description. First, I was assuming that the "block" was a dual output, not an in/out. Apparently the latter is the case. By following the hoses, here is how it seems to be "wired". 1)from the upper right fitting on the "block", it goes to the FEL "IN" fitting. 2) From the center of the FEL Valve block to the "P" port (which appears to be the same as "IN") on the T&T valve, and 3) from the "T" port on the T&T valve back to the "block". Based on this, I would assume that the center ports on the FEL valve are a source of hydraulic pressure (I looked at the HUSCO web site but there are no schmatics). When looking at the Dinoil drawings, http://www.grandflo.com.my/engin/compo.html, the "P" port seems to also have the pressure relief valve which supports the idea of "P" being the same as "IN". Apparently Dinoil is foreign, most likely Italian.
You are correct in that there are only 6 hoses on the T&T valve, just as you surmised. No power beyond connection. And yes, it works perfectly. With the box blade, I use the top adjust (is that tip or tilt?) almost as much as the 3pt raise and lower. You pull either lever to "extend" the cylinder and push to "retract" the cylinder.
Sorry for the confusion the first time.
Larry...
Bird, with flashlight in hand, I went for another look. Here's what I found which is a little different from my earlier description. First, I was assuming that the "block" was a dual output, not an in/out. Apparently the latter is the case. By following the hoses, here is how it seems to be "wired". 1)from the upper right fitting on the "block", it goes to the FEL "IN" fitting. 2) From the center of the FEL Valve block to the "P" port (which appears to be the same as "IN") on the T&T valve, and 3) from the "T" port on the T&T valve back to the "block". Based on this, I would assume that the center ports on the FEL valve are a source of hydraulic pressure (I looked at the HUSCO web site but there are no schmatics). When looking at the Dinoil drawings, http://www.grandflo.com.my/engin/compo.html, the "P" port seems to also have the pressure relief valve which supports the idea of "P" being the same as "IN". Apparently Dinoil is foreign, most likely Italian.
You are correct in that there are only 6 hoses on the T&T valve, just as you surmised. No power beyond connection. And yes, it works perfectly. With the box blade, I use the top adjust (is that tip or tilt?) almost as much as the 3pt raise and lower. You pull either lever to "extend" the cylinder and push to "retract" the cylinder.
Sorry for the confusion the first time.
Larry...
LarryT
Silver Member
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
Harv,
When my tractor encounters an object, that object usually becomes re-oriented, sometimes even dis-oriented!?!? However, its forbidden to produce code.
Larry...
Harv,
When my tractor encounters an object, that object usually becomes re-oriented, sometimes even dis-oriented!?!? However, its forbidden to produce code.
Larry...
OP
Bird
Rest in Peace
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
OK, Larry. I'm easily confused, but think I understand now. So instead of using the "optional" outlet at the rear, it's plumbed from the pump port (upper right on the block on the tractor) to the inlet (or pump "P") port on the FEL valve, then from the power beyond (PB) port on the FEL valve to the inlet (or pump "P") port on the T&T valve, and from the outlet (or tank "T") port on the T&T valve back to the power beyond port on the block. That was my original idea (gotten from what I understood of Mark Chalkley's descriptions a long time ago), and it may be the best (or even only) way to go, but if that "optional" block can be used instead, the T&T valve would in no way be connected to the FEL and shorter hoses could be used. Of course, I'm still not sure that's possible.
So you've answered a lot of questions, showed me where to find a smaller valve, the best place to mount the valve, etc. I really appreciate you time and trouble, and if your dealer is interested in selling a "kit", or having me contact him, let me know.
Bird
OK, Larry. I'm easily confused, but think I understand now. So instead of using the "optional" outlet at the rear, it's plumbed from the pump port (upper right on the block on the tractor) to the inlet (or pump "P") port on the FEL valve, then from the power beyond (PB) port on the FEL valve to the inlet (or pump "P") port on the T&T valve, and from the outlet (or tank "T") port on the T&T valve back to the power beyond port on the block. That was my original idea (gotten from what I understood of Mark Chalkley's descriptions a long time ago), and it may be the best (or even only) way to go, but if that "optional" block can be used instead, the T&T valve would in no way be connected to the FEL and shorter hoses could be used. Of course, I'm still not sure that's possible.
So you've answered a lot of questions, showed me where to find a smaller valve, the best place to mount the valve, etc. I really appreciate you time and trouble, and if your dealer is interested in selling a "kit", or having me contact him, let me know.
Bird
MarkV
Super Member
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2000
- Messages
- 5,698
- Location
- Cedartown, Ga and N. Ga mountains
- Tractor
- 1998 Kubota B21, 2005 Kubota L39
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
Larry,
Bird is doing all the leg work but I know there are others looking for the same set up. It is hard to believe that someone has not made up a kit. Maybe your dealer would be interested? Maybe the "B" models just differ enough to not make that practical.
Bird, I know you will keep us all informed as you sort it out. Good Luck
Larry,
Bird is doing all the leg work but I know there are others looking for the same set up. It is hard to believe that someone has not made up a kit. Maybe your dealer would be interested? Maybe the "B" models just differ enough to not make that practical.
Bird, I know you will keep us all informed as you sort it out. Good Luck
OP
Bird
Rest in Peace
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
This has been interesting, to say the least. Larry's set up looks great, but I simply cannot understand why the dealer/installer would use the power beyond port on the loader valve instead of the optional rear hydraulic outlet (and of course there may be a very good reason that I don't know or understand). So I've sent a request for such information to Kubota and am waiting to see what response I get. I also talked to another dealer by phone today who says they rig up a tip 'n tilt every once in awhile, have not done a B2710, but certainly can. He also told me they use the power beyond port on the loader but doesn't know of any reason you couldn't use the other hydraulic outlet. In the past, I had learned that Tisco makes a category I hydraulic top link, but didn't know of any of the other components they make, but that dealer today told me they don't have a kit specifically for the B2710, but that Tisco makes a complete kit for the B8200/9200 including top link, side link, valve, hoses, etc. (designed to use the power beyond port on the loader valve/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif). He thought it would work on the B2710 also. He also thinks I could just buy all the Tisco components, except the hoses, get the optional rear hydraulic block for the B2710 and have hoses made to the right length. I've also asked Steve Carver to check into it and see what he can come up with. So, I'm going to wait to hear from Steve and Kubota because I would rather buy from Steve if possible.
Bird
This has been interesting, to say the least. Larry's set up looks great, but I simply cannot understand why the dealer/installer would use the power beyond port on the loader valve instead of the optional rear hydraulic outlet (and of course there may be a very good reason that I don't know or understand). So I've sent a request for such information to Kubota and am waiting to see what response I get. I also talked to another dealer by phone today who says they rig up a tip 'n tilt every once in awhile, have not done a B2710, but certainly can. He also told me they use the power beyond port on the loader but doesn't know of any reason you couldn't use the other hydraulic outlet. In the past, I had learned that Tisco makes a category I hydraulic top link, but didn't know of any of the other components they make, but that dealer today told me they don't have a kit specifically for the B2710, but that Tisco makes a complete kit for the B8200/9200 including top link, side link, valve, hoses, etc. (designed to use the power beyond port on the loader valve/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif). He thought it would work on the B2710 also. He also thinks I could just buy all the Tisco components, except the hoses, get the optional rear hydraulic block for the B2710 and have hoses made to the right length. I've also asked Steve Carver to check into it and see what he can come up with. So, I'm going to wait to hear from Steve and Kubota because I would rather buy from Steve if possible.
Bird
Anonymous Poster
Epic Contributor
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2005
- Messages
- 29,678
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
Harv,
Sorry I did'nt get back to you sooner. Your 2500 has the hyd outlet plate. I checked today to see if there was an aux kit avail but it does'nt look like it (the salesman was pretty busy) we looked through the accy chart and did not see anything available. But that does'nt mean there is'nt.
Harv,
Sorry I did'nt get back to you sooner. Your 2500 has the hyd outlet plate. I checked today to see if there was an aux kit avail but it does'nt look like it (the salesman was pretty busy) we looked through the accy chart and did not see anything available. But that does'nt mean there is'nt.
Harv
Elite Member
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2000
- Messages
- 3,346
- Tractor
- Kubota L2500DT Standard Transmission
Re: Hydraulic Tip \'N Tilt
KubMech -
Thanks for checking into this -- you're worth twice what I'm paying you. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Keep in mind that my hydraulic IQ is pretty low on fluid, so let me ask for a little clarification here:
You say my 2500 has the hydraulic outlet plate. That means there's at least a good place to tap into the hydraulic system?
Now, even if there is not an "aux kit" (distrubution block, control valves, etc.?) available through Kubota, does that just mean I would have to cobble together my own parts from third-party dealers?
If, like Bird said, buying a kit from Kubota means forking out $861, I think I like the cobbling approach better already. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif
Bird -
I'm hanging on your every word here, with regards your inquiries to various shops and dealers. I stumbled across an honest-to-god hydraulics shop not far from where I live, so there's a chance I could get some custom work done (for an as yet undetermined price) if I can produce a detailed plan for what I want.
I get the feeling from y'all so far that the various components for this project are available from a number of different sources. I'm just not sure about things like the top-link fittings for the ends of the cylinder itself. Can they be purchased ready-made, or is this a welding chore?
So much to learn ... so little time.
KubMech -
Thanks for checking into this -- you're worth twice what I'm paying you. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Keep in mind that my hydraulic IQ is pretty low on fluid, so let me ask for a little clarification here:
You say my 2500 has the hydraulic outlet plate. That means there's at least a good place to tap into the hydraulic system?
Now, even if there is not an "aux kit" (distrubution block, control valves, etc.?) available through Kubota, does that just mean I would have to cobble together my own parts from third-party dealers?
If, like Bird said, buying a kit from Kubota means forking out $861, I think I like the cobbling approach better already. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif
Bird -
I'm hanging on your every word here, with regards your inquiries to various shops and dealers. I stumbled across an honest-to-god hydraulics shop not far from where I live, so there's a chance I could get some custom work done (for an as yet undetermined price) if I can produce a detailed plan for what I want.
I get the feeling from y'all so far that the various components for this project are available from a number of different sources. I'm just not sure about things like the top-link fittings for the ends of the cylinder itself. Can they be purchased ready-made, or is this a welding chore?
So much to learn ... so little time.
Here are some similar links:
