Hydro or Shuttle for the long haul?

[rScotty]

I had the opposite experience to what LS had.
I went from a 57hp hydro Kubota to a 70hp powershift Massey and I found
the Massey much harder to use and at times nerve racking in close spaces.
Took me quite a while to dig into a pile of dirt or sand smoothly with powershift while hydro
just came naturally. Of course I always made sure to downshift to low range before digging into anything.
Did a lot of grapple work and that was always easier with hydrostatic trans.
I just wish someone made a 100hp hydrostatic utility tractor.

sometimes it's nice being able to keep both hands on the steering wheel, looking down at the bucket or grapple, and not have to worry
about your left leg or arm doing anything. I believe New Holland made an IVT model down into lower hp range, always wondered how they held up.
Bet that's an expensive trans to buy and possibly to own.

You know, you make a couple of good points that could stand more discussion - especially for folks who haven't experience with HST vs Shuttles,

For example, where you say, "...sometimes it's nice being able to keep both hands on the steering wheel, looking down at the bucket or grapple, and not have to worry about your left leg or arm doing anything."

I'm one of those lucky people who just run through the controls once and after that my body just does the right thing without having to think about it. So what lever does what motion doesn't matter to me. It's not that I don't care; it's that I don't even notice a difference.

But my brother isn't that way at all. On most everything that has to do with life, he's smarter than I am. And he is a college professor, too.
But even after years of using the same machine he has to stop and think about which lever to pull or push to make the motion he wants to make.
I've watch him do that for years. And he still gets it wrong sometimes. Standing close to the backhoe when he is the operator is just plain scary.

Machines just aren't his thing even though he loves them as we all do. For him I would absolutely recommend a HST just to cut down on the chance of a mistake.

On your other point, there are big machines with HST - CAT dozers and loaders have a HST option. But the cost of a HST to handle 100 HP and up is astronomical....heat control and special alloys required..... Which maybe tells us something we don't like to hear about the expected longevity of our 60 hp tractors with HST.

Those IVT (Infinitely Variable Transmissions) come around every few years but never seem to get popular. Like you, I wonder why? There are a bunch of different IVTs and they would seem to be the answer. But only Yanmar - that I know of - is selling an over 30 hp tractor with an IVT.

 

[mwayne]

if one is worried about hydrostatic reliability, maybe some input on what goes wrong with them would help. Who has had a hydro break on them?

That is a great idea. If TBN members who have experienced problems with hydrostatic transmissions would be kind enough to share the rest of us could benefit.

 

[rScotty]

What HST tractor is paired with 6 ranges?

Six ranges HST are available on all of the Kubotas that have the transmission they call, "HST Plus" or sometimes "HST+". That gives three ranges in the HST plus a electric-over-hydraulic switch on the steering column that allows your left hand can switch on the go between a syncronized high and low speed gear in the rear axle. That gives 6 forward and 6 reverse. Very handy. We use it a lot.

More gears just makes sense. Kubota's HST+ with an electrically shifted rear axle is a simple time-proven way to get a lot more efficiency out of a HST and should also save on internal transmission wear.

As for how long two speed rear axles have been around, Our old 1958 GMC farm truck has a similar two speed rear end - although it isn't synchronized like Kubota's is.

I doubt that Kubota is the only one. It wouldn't surprise me if other tractor brands are offering something similar, but I haven't looked.
rScotty

 

[RickB]

HST Plus uses a two stage hydro drive motor, not a gear set. Rather than a fixed swashplate angle as found in many hydrostatic motor rotating groups the motor has two selectable swash plate angles. The pump retains infinite swashplate angle capability within the operating range.
The range selector still offers three gear selections. HST plus does not use synchronizers. The hardware is very similar to that used in skid steers and older New Holland Class III tractors but with a computer control layer.
Comparing any of this to an electric or vacuum operated two speed axle in a truck is an interesting comment. The functionality is marginally similar but that is the beginning and end of it.

 

[mikester]

I'd strongly suggest test driving each and deciding for yourself.

Back in 2005 I demo'd NH, K and JD hydrostat machines in the 50-60HP range. IMHO the JD performed great and was the best HST overall, the NH struggled to make it up hills with anything in the bucket. I hated the K treadle. I ended up getting the NH with EHSS and never had issues with pulling power.

In 2015 I bought a Kubota M59 for loader work and the BH. I was a little weary about the K HST but found it had unbelievable grunt. Not as nice as the JD for control and drivability, and K still had the crappy treadle design and no cruise control. Currently I prefer the HST over EHSS in my usage because of the better control and infinitely variable speeds. If I could get the JD controls and the K grunt that would be a perfect combo. On second thoughts, for the money K charges the HST+ should be able to quick shift all ranges and gears on the column similar to larger wheel loaders and TLB's. The K manual HI-MED-LOW shifter sucks and is positioned right beside the 3PH controls.

If my plan was to pull a plow with occasional loader work I would probably go back to the EHSS.

 

[Ken]

That is a great idea. If TBN members who have experienced problems with hydrostatic transmissions would be kind enough to share the rest of us could benefit.

I have a John Deere 4520 power reverser Hyudrostat. and the major problem is everything "delicate" is mounted out of sight under the deck so if
use anywhere a stick or rock will damage the hydraulic lines , filter, or controls for the loader. . it has been transmission trouble free but the $100+ lines to front loader located so everything snatched them. or the filter mounted so 1/2 inch from the right rear tire
Repairing the tractor for minor problems requires the removal of the seat, fuel tank before can get to the floor deck then enough bolts screws to fill the gallon bucket Every time wish had the engineer designing this tractor had gotten out of the airconditioned office and had it break down in a field with the broken hydraulic line. mashed by rock or bent by a stick.
Use also an early 50's B Farmall. no hydraulics but can pull or use in fence repair without having to worry about something squatting oil.

ken

 

[rScotty]

HST Plus uses a two stage hydro drive motor, not a gear set. Rather than a fixed swashplate angle as found in many hydrostatic motor rotating groups the motor has two selectable swash plate angles. The pump retains infinite swashplate angle capability within the operating range.
The range selector still offers three gear selections. HST plus does not use synchronizers. The hardware is very similar to that used in skid steers and older New Holland Class III tractors but with a computer control layer.
Comparing any of this to an electric or vacuum operated two speed axle in a truck is an interesting comment. The functionality is marginally similar but that is the beginning and end of it.

I suggest you look up how the HST+ differs before making those types of comments.
In particular you should look up the two speed rear axle as used in HST +.
That way you can correct your impression of how they operate.
rScott

 

[ptsg]

I suggest you look up how the HST+ differs before making those types of comments.
In particular you should look up the two speed rear axle as used in HST +.
That way you can correct your impression of how they operate.
rScott

Rick actually got it spot on and he does know what he is talking about.

Now, two speed rear axle? On tractor? That would be a first for me.

Anyway, here is a like scheme of the HST Plus.

If you want more ranges on a compact tractor, just look at Branson. It's the only one offering 4 Range Transmission on both Gear and HST models on tractors from 35 to 55 HP.

 

[rScotty]

Rick actually got it spot on and he does know what he is talking about.

Now, two speed rear axle? On tractor? That would be a first for me.

Anyway, here is a like scheme of the HST Plus.

If you want more ranges on a compact tractor, just look at Branson. It's the only one offering 4 Range Transmission on both Gear and HST models on tractors from 35 to 55 HP.

View attachment 683154

Not so; you are making the same mistake by making an assumption without all the facts. We all know how most transmissions work - whether HST or other type.
I urge you to take a look at an exploded diagram of the HST+ rear end gearing.

I admit that Kubota chose an unusual way to do this in the tractor world, but if you want to make the posted illustration complete, it needs to show how HST + works - that is, you need to show on on your illustration how the high/low gearing is accomplished....not just a switch, but show what that switch actually does.
rScotty

*Remember, the HST + gives us high or low in each of the three ranges both in Forward and Reverse.

 

[Peter 315]

I suggest you look up how the HST+ differs before making those types of comments.
In particular you should look up the two speed rear axle as used in HST +.
That way you can correct your impression of how they operate.
rScott

HST Plus TRANSMISSION BASICS

To understand the HST Plus transmission, all one needs to understand is that it is like any HST transmission consisting of a variable displacement oil pump that supplies oil flow to a drive motor. Part of the “Plus” of the HST Plus transmission it that it uses a 2 stage (High/Low) drive motor – a Kubota exclusive feature and is controlled by a electronic control unit (ECU).